board77

Alatar, beleive me, I am no less sorry than you that you cannot have the opportunity of carrying your own child.

However, just because men aren't able to do this, why should that automatically mean that a terrible burden is placed on women in this regard? For thousands of years, the only power most women had was the fact that they could bear children and men could not. And even then, when women have no choices about whether or not they can/want to have children, it's no power at all.

So maybe you can understand why women, even today, consider this something of a touchy topic when men appear to be trying to tell them what they should and should not do with their bodies?

If someone told you that you were selfish for not wanting to put yourself in the way of physical and psychological harm that you were under no real obligation to suffer...well, I have to think you'd look at them a little oddly as well.

In any case, you say that there are two sides to the story, which yes, I understand...I beleive that's why most couples, before choosing to spend their lives together, discuss the matter of children and who wants/expects what from their partner. So really, I don't see this as being a do-or-die issue...sometimes there will have to be compromises made, and if either party feels strongly enough on the issue to break it off with the other, well...that's just the way life goes. One can't be expected to sacrifice something so important and essential to themselves, either way.

That said, you don't seem to understand 'our' side of the issue. You really appear to be just brushing off our concerns, if they aren't medical, as something shallow and selfish and childish, which, quite frankly, I find insulting.

First of all...the whole physicality issue...clearly, when compared to the love of children and such that many people have posted about in this thread, losing one's former physical appearance is a smaller issue. However, if you look at society at large, and even the way in which individual people view each other, looks are, like it or not, a huge part of life. Just from the "Body image" thread in this forum, it's quite clear that even the most beautiful and intelligent of women can have deep seated issues about the way they look. Pregnancy is often something that will change a woman's shape, not for the better. With all the emphasis that society places on looks, you still blame women for not wanting to deal with this? Sure, you can say society shouldn't be this way, as I think most people would agree, but it is society's fault, and not an individual woman's.

I would say though that shape alone is among the least of the issues that women are thinking of when they say they don't want to go through pregnancy. Surely you know of the other kinds of physical problems, some of them permanent, that it can cause. These are pretty scary things that I can't imagine anyone would voluntarily wish to happen to them...so again, you blame some women for not wanting to take the risk? I don't want to have a career in a dangerous field like the Army, police force, or firefighting where the risks of death and injury are increased - does that mean there's something wrong with me, that I'm selfish and foolish? I really don't think so.

And you seem to be discounting the psychological aspects as well - what about the chances of post-partum depression or psycosis? Or even just the increased hormones and mood swings of pregnancy? I have, despite not being pregnant, seen these things for myself, as my sister suffered greatly from depression after the birth of her last child. So I'm to be blamed for not wanting to put my mental, as well as physical, health on the line?

I have sympathy for men in that their reproductive futures do depend on women, yes, though women's also depend on men in a similar, if not equal fashion. But I can never know what it's like to be a man. And you, no matter how much time you spend with pregnant women and mothers and midwives, can't know what it's like to be a woman and be facing that kind of choice. And I think that's all anyone was trying to say when they told you to 'shut up because you're a man.'

And if you actually read all of that, I congratulate you.

Alatar,

Pregnancy is not every woman's destiny nor the ultimate source of fulfillment and happiness for every woman. People are different.

When one party of a couple, be it the female or the male, does not want kids, and the other does, there is obviously a problem that can be solved in one of three ways. A) The unwilling party gets persuaded into going for it B) the willing party gives up their parenting dream or C) the couple splits up and looks for people with the same ideas on children as mates... though we know that love doesnt choose and there are no guarantees they will find a new romantic partner with the same intentions.
Coercion, however subtle, and "guilt tripping" on this issue are extremly unfair I think.

Coercion by its definition would mean influencing someone TO DO something, as I see it. A woman refusing to be pregnant though her partner wants children is not coercing anyone into anything. Whether we like it or not, it is HER body thats going to be influenced, thus I think she definitely has the final say in this, and there is nothing unreasonably selfish about that.

In my books love does not give us power over other people, no power to insist on or absolutely expect something from the other which would involve a big, lengthy, and risky undertaking affecting that person's very physical body as well as mind and emotions. It is unfortunate men cannot "bear their own children" but this is the status quo, and I do not think that this unfortunate set up of things has any clout in even implying that a woman in any way "owes" it to a man to be pregnant to give him a child, if her own convictions make her shy away from the idea of a pregnancy.

It is a fundamental fact of human biology that men cannot bear children. Is it fair? I dont know... can evolution be called on what it perpetrates? The way things are though, I dont see how because of the path evolution took women have to somehow compensate for it and at all times be willing to carry their partner's children. I think the discomfort, physical or psychological that a woman may fear from a pregnancy is a perfectly sound and non-laughable reason for refraining from becoming pregnant. Not every woman on this earth MUST physically bear children. At least last time I looked there was no such command anywhere...

As for the point you make asking about surrogate mothers... do you mean a surrogate to carry the pregnancy with a fetus conceived in vitro by the original couple? Or a surrogate actually contributing her egg?
If the first, I would definitely agree. If it was the second option, Im not so sure, but I would not rule it out. I'm not so sure, however, that every man who is faced with this dilemma would be utterly keen on that option either...

I'm single, in my early forties, never been pregnant, never given birth, and I can tell you that I would LOVE the chance to have a child. 'Cause I can hear that good old biological clock ticking steadily towards midnight. It's ticking ever louder and I wish it would bloody well shut up, but it's not going to, so ... *shrug* ... maybe it's not gonna happen for me now. My cut-off point is 46, because that's how old my sister-in-law was when she had her first and only daughter (who is now 10, and a great kid in perfect health).

You needn't get out the violins. I don't pine to have kids (I enjoy children but I also enjoy handing them back to Mum and Dad ) but I have to be honest - once the biological clock does hit midnight, I am sure I will feel a keen sense of loss.

I have very strong Christian convictions and would not consider having a child outside marriage. Surrogacy is also a no-no for me. I really do have very strong feelings about this.

I have several married friends who have chosen not to have children and I think that is entirely their business. I wouldn't dream of judging them as selfish. It would never occur to me. They must both be agreed on the issue though. I don't understand one partner denying the other children when the other wants them. What are they afraid of?

And I don't understand this modern fear of pregnancy. Of course there are risks involved, but pregnancy is far safer now than it has ever been in the past. I'd have hated to have been a woman 100 years ago, when infant mortality rates were much much higher, when the risk of dying in childbirth was far greater and women's sexuality was treated in such a patriarchal way.

I love the idea of being pregnant. It's just the giving birth bit that I am less keen on because believe me I am the world's biggest wimp when it comes to pain.

On adoption ... apparently there are 53,000 kids in care in England and Wales who need adopting. But people don't want to adopt teenagers with a troubled history. They want to adopt cute babies.

As an adopted person myself, I believe very strongly that a loving family unit - whether the adopters are single or in a couple - is infinitely, INFINITELY preferable to remaining in care.

Having had one very easy delivery and one really hard delivery, I can say that the pain of childbirth is both overestimated and underestimated. In my case the easy birth came first, which is odd, but then, who can explain such things?

Yes, it hurts to have a baby. But you get such a cool prize.

My maternal granny had 15 children, one at a time. No twins. All born at home, and the most medical care she had was a sort of neighbourhood midwife. 14 of those children, including my 80 year old mother, are still alive. The one who died did so in 1945, before penicillin was commonly available to the civilian population. When she died in 1994 at the age of 90, my granny had 114 living descendants: children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and one great-great grandchild, who just happens to be my oldest grandson.

Sorta puts things in perspective for me!

The pain of childbirth was peanuts compared to the miserableness of being pregnant. 18 months total I spent in that state! It was not fun. Labor for me was not so bad: 2-3 pushing sessions at the end of 5-6 hours of labor and they were over. I was more miserable in Basic Training when the drill sergeant had us doing dry fire exercises on our elbows on gravel, and wouldn't let us pad our elbows with the uniform jacket!

Actually, the ultimate pain so far, for me, was when I had plantar fasciitis a year and a half ago. There were micro tears in the fascia of the soles of my feet, and every step I took was agony, for two whole months. The ultimate in pain so far. I HOPE I don't find anything worse!

Childbirth wasn't that bad.

Well, hate to sound like a wet blanket here, but I absolutely bloomed with pregnancy with my first child. I only had the pregnancy tummy, my hair was glossy and thick, and I lost all of my pregnancy weight gain in less than six weeks. I was the picture of health and looked like a madonna. And, it was not something that I worked at, that was just the way it was.

Child number two: By six months, I looked like a draft horse. My back hurt all of the time (sciatica), my feet were swollen, I had to keep having glucose tests because they knew the baby would be big, albeit healthy, and after one week past my due date, I literally cried to be induced. My ob-gyn agreed. Andrew got stuck during delivery, his shoulders were too broad for me to push out. He was a combo suction/forceps delivery at that point, and I thought I would die from the pain, and I bled like a stiuck pig for a week afterwards. But, the funny thing was, it all faded instantly once that little person was in my arms. Truly, the pain and discomfort just seemingly evaporated.

My third child was two weeks early, and you would think that a not even six pound baby would be a blessed relief, but, I can now attest that size has nothing to do with the actual labor. Actually, with him, poor little guy, they had given me sedatives in lieu of other pain medication because my water had broken 48 hours earlier without labor beginning, so again I was induced, this time immediately onto a pitosin drip IV, so by the time he came into the world, I was only half awake. But, the same thing all over again, you just forget everything, that is your baby there in your arms.

For those of you who are not comfortable with pregnancy, all I can say is that I shared your thoughts, but, things also change, and your outlooks may be part of this, I feel sorry for men in that they cannot experience it. It is something that cannot be described by any other words accurately until one goes through it themselves. Sorry to be so vague, but, it is just one of those times where you truly believe that there is meaning in everything that happens, and that what happens does so for a reason.

The Watcher wrote:

. It is something that cannot be described by any other words accurately until one goes through it themselves. Sorry to be so vague, but, it is just one of those times where you truly believe that there is meaning in everything that happens, and that what happens does so for a reason.

I remember the feeling of being part of an absolute miracle when my first was born. We had been at the hospital almost 24 hours by then (my water also broke with no labor - he was more than 2 weeks early!) and I had had pitocin and finally an epidural. I was exhausted, but the nurse practitioner who worked with me was so encouraging and I just kept pushing and pushing and then suddenly...there he was! One second there had been 4 people in the room and now - there were FIVE. I had produced a NEW PERSON.

He was bright red and covered in goo and bawling his head off and big! (He weighed more than 9 pounds...no wonder he came out early!) And I remember being so completely filled with awe and joy that I couldn't even speak.

Long after I became an adult, my dear father used to look at me sometimes with misty eyes and say, "Oh, Julie. I remember when you were born." I always thought...well, of course you do. But now I know what he meant and how he felt. And now that I am the age he was when he used to say it, I understand more fully how the circle of life continues to turn and why he got misty-eyed.

There is indeed no feeling comparable to the feeling of holding that baby in your arms. They stare up at you with knowing, slate-blue eyes, they KNOW their mother. You fall in love with them, BOOM. That's it. Life as you knew it has changed forever.

It's not something you can explain. I had no particular feelings one way or the other about babies, as the eldest of 6 I'd had plenty of practice in diaper changing and bathing and joogling the buggy so the baby would sleep. I quite liked my little brothers and sisters.

But it was NOTHING like having a baby of my own. I'd be pregnant any day, even now, if I could get a baby out of it.....

Then, at some point, you want to give them away. I think we should trade children when they enter puberty. They always behave so much better for someone else!

I've never wanted to have kids, however, I'm a bit different from others who have posted here - I like them, I love babies. My mom is an ob/gyn nurse, and I used to visit her at work all the time, she'd show me the newborns, ask the new moms if I could hold them, etc etc. One of my best and most favorite memories was of holding a beautiful little two year old for almost four hours while she napped in my arms (arms were very very very tired).

I used to love baby-sitting, taking care of little kids, taking care of babies, etc etc etc. Still do I suppose. I think kids are wonderful little beasts. What I love best about them, is giving them back

All of that said, I don't want them, and never have. I am very lucky in that the person I have fallen in love with has already had two kids (both of whom are 18 years old and not living with us) and doesn't want anymore - to the point where he has had "the snip." My mom was very disappointed - "I always hoped you would meet someone who would make you change your mind." I'm glad I've found someone where I don't have to change.

There are other benefits as well - not only do I never have to worry about having kids, but, because of the snip, I don't have to use protection with him - whether that be condoms (I have a latex allergy that makes using them very uncomfortable), or using Birth Control Pill's (which mess up my hormones like mad). So not only do I not have to have kids, but I don't have to do other things which I dislike.

What an interesting thread!

First off, Athrabeth, I want to give you the biggest {{HUG}} ever... I truly cannot imagine surviving something like that. I really can't. I think I, personally, would still be in a corner somewhere, whimpering...I've though you amazing before, but my regard for you only increases... I'm so sorry, my remarkable friend. I don't know how else to say it.

Alatar, I feel led to rush to your defence. While I understand people wanting to have a say over their own bodies, and fervently support that thought (!), I feel like men are shortchanged a bit when it comes to the glory of producing children.

I understand that although men are not going through the actual discomforts of pregnancy, hardly anything in life is equitable.

I feel like you are just as much the father of your children as I am the mother of my children, if that makes any convoluted sense at all... and that one is not more important than the other. Although the physical stress involved is different... I suppose YOU don't have stretch marks?

(As to the claim that pregnancy ruins your body... I will agree, but only to the extent that it makes the rot set in FASTER. No one's bod looks that great when they get old, baby or no baby. Just sayin... )

I'm glad I got to be pregnant.

So there!

It is definitely one of the best things about being a woman, for me. So MANY things seem completely unfair about being female... the monthly pain thing seems a little bit WRONG, if I may be so crass, and men in my profession STILL get paid more than women do... which totally BITES, if you ask me.

But I, and only I, got to feel our son and daughter move, while they were still being made. <goosebumps> I still feel a bit of a special bond with each of them because they were physically PART of me... a feeling I would not have had, were I their father and not their mother. I feel pretty darned lucky, because of that. (Almost makes up for the pay discrepancy thingy. )

As an aside: I wonder if men feel left out, a little, by not "participating" so much with the actual nuts and bolts of baby production?

'Course, I didn't really "DO" much when I was pregnant, as far as shaping the baby. (Erma Bombeck said it best: pregnancy is the only opportunity you'll ever have to assist God in a miracle. ) I just took my multivitamins, tried to exercise and eat right, and read EVERY last book written about childbirth and pregnancy. I was quite the expert on the whole thing, until it actually happened.

I then found out that every last book written is JUNK, and not worth the collective tree deaths they caused. NO ONE can describe it for you... NO ONE can play "YOU are Having a Baby" but YOU. Nobody.

I will say it was the most completely focused, most intense event of my life.

When my oldest was born , and they put him on my chest... well. Oh, my.

I wasn't prepared, after all.

I could feel... almost hear... something... something like a tornado approaching.

Lots of power, lots of noise, an incredible unstoppable FORCE, forming up, accumulating, focusing, gathering strength, relentless and inevitable, and when it actually HIT, I was as overwhelmed, bowled over, unmade, pierced, remade, etched, ALTERED, with pure, agonizingly sweet emotion as I've ever been.



None of it, however, was easy. I was pregnant and/or lactating for 2.5 years (my children are 11 months apart). I had to work the midnight shift, to help support our suddenly blossoming family... if I have any regrets, it would be that I was so numb from exhaustion the first few years of my babies' lives that I was living in 15 minute windows, as someone else has described.

I barely survived the baby years. And I really am not exaggerating.

I've always thought myself pretty tough... I had a handicapped brother, and our childhood was anything but carefree... but I've NEVER done anything as hard as the daily grind of caring for/providing for babies. I dug deeper into reserves I didn't know I had, on an hourly basis, hour after seemingly endless hour. If any of you have ANY doubts, I would advise caution. (And my hat is off to people who know that they do not want children, and defy the societal pressure to procreate. If you KNOW you shouldn't be parents, you really shouldn't be parents! )

Raising babies is HARD.

But it is, quite against logic, also the most WONDERFUL thing I've ever participated in.

Just sayin'!

That was a lovely post, Anthriel, and it describes the whole thing very well!

vison:

Can I get in line after Tinwe for your affections?

Anth....................what a great post. You really do give words a special energy!!

Quote:

I truly cannot imagine surviving something like that. I really can't. I think I, personally, would still be in a corner somewhere, whimpering...

No you wouldn't, my dear friend. Not when you had a sweet little three-year old who needed her mom so badly after such a long darkness. Alix was my light, my sanity, my only joy, during the long months of uncertainty and sorrow that began before the birth of our second baby and continued beyond the day we had to bid her farewell. It was truly the longest and most difficult road I have ever had to walk, but it was set before me and I had no other choice but to walk it the best I could. I really don't think I could have done it without my little girl's boundless love and hope skipping innocently and joyously beside me. Another wondrous discovery that parenthood provides: to be strong beyond any strength you knew you had, for the sake of your child, because of your child.

And you are sooooo right about that amazing, mysterious experience of feeling a tiny human being stretch and turn and kick and even hiccup inside of you! I loved it....................well, most of the time. My daughters were both very serene in their movements, very considerate, one might say. My son was an pre-natal version of someone with an attention deficit/hyperactivity/compulsive-obsessive disorder...............oh, and add a sleeping disorder to that list...........he always seemed to wake up and start going mental as soon as I was ready to call it a night.

My, oh my, Anth! Your description of the emotions engulfing you when you first "met" your son....................simply wonderful to read, and so close to my own feelings that before now, I have never had words for. Thanks for giving them to me.

Anthriel wrote:

Lots of power, lots of noise, an incredible unstoppable FORCE, forming up, accumulating, focusing, gathering strength, relentless and inevitable, and when it actually HIT, I was as overwhelmed, bowled over, unmade, pierced, remade, etched, ALTERED, with pure, agonizingly sweet emotion as I've ever been.

Darn, I almost want another baby now! .

There's no way to describe it, no way to transfer that experience to somebody. I had a lovely, easy pregnancy except that every prenatal test came up with another false positive until I was a nervous wreck! I remember sitting in a cafe with the prospective dad, picking out a crib from a catalog. A young mother came up to me and whispered "Welcome to the club! You'll see, it's so worth it!"

Labor was long and exausting as Lufu proved his individuality by coming out in "military" position - head straight up instead of tucked in - and with one hand by his ear. Third degree tears. But when they gave him to me, when I held him, I instantly knew him. He was mine, made of my flesh and smeared in my blood, mine in a sense that nobody else could ever claim him. Not even his dad.

My hubby went through it with me, as far as a man can go. He hugged me through contractions, but I was the one scewered with pain. I was the one who felt the tidal power of pushing the baby out, when your body just takes over and does its thing, and maybe you can direct that power a little but you can't stop it. He held both of us in his arms as I nursed in bed on Sunday mornings, and he saw the infant's hungry screams replaced by the milk-drunk bliss in 2 seconds flat, but he could not experience the rush of letdown and the warm-and-fuzzies that come with it. I was the only Amazing Life-Giving Lactating Goddess in the house, and that gave me a sense of power, of reverent awe for my body.

And it's not up to anyone else to tell me whether I will ever go through that again.

I'm sorry Alatar, but men are up against the fundamental inequality here. Whether by the Lord's design or by evolution, they are deprived of the bliss of childbearing and protected from its pain and danger. Trust me, we would share if we could.

Quote:

My, oh my, Anth! Your description of the emotions engulfing you when you first "met" your son....................simply wonderful to read, and so close to my own feelings that before now, I have never had words for. Thanks for giving them to me

I knew you would understand, my dear friend.

Quote:

It was truly the longest and most difficult road I have ever had to walk, but it was set before me and I had no other choice but to walk it the best I could.

This I believe. And thank God for little Alix, and the strength she lent you, the cause she gave you that was worth fighting for, when all the fight was seemingly spent.

to my twin...

Frelga wrote:

He was mine, made of my flesh and smeared in my blood, mine in a sense that nobody else could ever claim him

I understand, Frelga. I understand!

Frelga, that was a beautiful post. :cheers
Thank you!

I have no doubt it can be an amazingly powerful, if not the most powerful experience of a lifetime. I have no doubt theres an unspeakable metaphysical aspect as you come into the empoweringl, unique and beautiful state of motherhood.

Yet like you said, its a very personal choice that only a woman can make about her own body. People are different as are their paths to fulfillment...

Estel, my mother says things like that too... shes been saying that I will change my mind since I first told her when I was little that I dont want babies lol... she maintained it was silly... then it was a teenage phase... so far Ive proved her wrong.
...and just for the record Im jealous of your luckyness in this respect (I told you that before though) ...it is definitely very convenient the way you and Steve are aligned on this issue!

Di, its interesting you call it a "modern fear of pregnancy"... makes me consider it in sociological terms...
I think the changing role of women in society (which is a good thing) has probably contributed to this, but its also largely based on individual personality and experience.
Like I said, I think part of my own fear is that many women in my family did not have medically/physically good experiences. Though my mom had a great pregnancy with me, (she says shes never felt better), the birth was a royal mess and she almost died after having me and spent a long time bedridden in the hospital. This was largely due to external cirucumstances of sub-par healthcare in then communist Poland, but its left some mark on my psyche I suppose. Shes not the only scary birth story Ive heard from close ones. Even more so with bad pregnancies, some of which Ive partially witnessed.

Thanks for sharing your experiences ladies so openly and sincerely I love reading people's stories...

For every good pregnancy, theres a bad one, and vice versa.
The fact remains there are risks, and it is a life changing event in so many ways. I could not imagine treating it lightly...and Im fairly sure, at least for the near future, that it is not for me...I hope everyone, including men (especially men) can respect a woman's option to remain child free and find life's meaning in other ways. Just because men arent lucky enough to be able to go through it doesnt mean every woman has to be ecstatic and desirous of the option, by the mere virtue of it being available to her.

Ath...I want to offer my sincere condolences. I hadn't read further back in the thread when I made my post and had missed it. I can't even imagine. Every once in a while my brain involuntarily imagines what it would be like if something happened to MY daughter, and I don't know how I would get through it. In a way you were fortunate to already have your older daughter--I'm sure that is what helped you find your way through your pain, knowing you had to be there for her.

And I had to laugh about your comments about movements in utero being different between your daughters and your son....my daughter, now 4, was a very easy "guest"--I remember movements, but nothing painful or uncomfortable. Whereas this one, which is predicted by ultrasound to be a boy, likes to put a foot at one end and a head or something at the other and try to straighten out! Oooof! Then there's the dancing and poking right on my cervix. Ouch!! I can only imagine what he'll be like when he's out.

This is such an interesting thread. I guess I fall into the category of not falling in love with my child instantly. I was relieved she was out, and she seemed cute enough, but I didn't feel much right then. Or even later, when she was an infant. Mostly she was an exhausting duty. But the bond with her has grown over time. Now I'm so bonded to her that she is far and away my favorite person to hang around with and there is no greater warm and peace for me than when we are sitting snuggled together watching TV or reading books. I love my husband, but this is a far different bond.

Ellienor, when is this busy guy due?

My daughter was my straightener-outer! I actually had a torn muscle in my abdomen from the spot where she always planted one of her feet, and her skull would press right down against my tailbone and send little shocks through my nerves. She was a mover. She also had the longest umbilical cord the midwife had ever seen--I swear it was between three and four feet. It was wrapped all around her arms and legs and even neck--fortunately it was so long that it still had plenty of slack. We joke that she used to go out for walks at night.

She was my third. The second didn't straighten out, but he moved so constantly it was hard to get his heartbeat. The first was very placid other than hiccups.

However, my "placid" first is the most jittery of my kids; my always-moving second is very calm and contemplative; and the peripatetic third concentrates more deeply than either of the others.

I didn't fall "instantly in love" with any of mine, either, although I knew I loved them. The passion grew over time. I think it was the same for my husband--until our youngest, our daughter. I remember him during the first hour after she was born, standing in the hospital room holding her, staring down into her sleeping face and swaying slowly back and forth for a loooooong time. He said later he couldn't believe the surge of protectiveness he felt. He wanted to tell her that she would always be safe and no one would ever hurt her.

Vison, Anthriel, Athrabeth, Alatar, Primula, Frelga,

Parenthood is a wondrous, crazy, life-altering experience, which lasts your whole life. I think for me, having children was my expression that there is hope for humanity. It is an act of faith in LIFE.( not necessarily in a religious way...)
We worry so much, in the Western world, about the responsibility, the financial aspect, the timing, I think many times, we miss the point. Life is not a dental appointment.