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Why do we decide to have babies?

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jewelsong
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 12:48 am
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vison wrote:
While it is true that there are many children who need homes, the adoption of a child of a different "race" than the parents creates as many problems as it solves.
It can be problematic, but there are many groups that deal specifically with inter-racial adoption. Due to the political climate, there are many adopted children from China and Korea and support groups all over to help the families. Same goes for bi-racial children; there are many more than there used to be and so the child (and family) does not have to feel alone...there are others in similar situations and that helps with any difficulties.
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Just for an example: I know a woman who adopted a little black girl from Haiti when the child was 18 months old. This child is beautiful and bright, she is now 9. Some fool, some incredible interfering moron of a beastly fool, said to this child, "white people are more evolved than black people" and that little girl has been waiting now for months to "evolve" into a white person like her mum and dad.
This is horrendous, true. A black child adopted into a white family will have specific issues to deal with, including handling racist assholes. (LORD, save me from ignorant assholes and smite them with your WRATH) However, her mom surely is (or should be) aware that this kind of prejudice and ignorance will occur. Hasn't she talked to her daughter about this very thing and discussed ways to respond? It is the responsibility of the adoptive parent to be as prepared as possible and most adoption agencies will at least superficially address this.
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Cross "racial" or even "cross cultural" adoptions require an enormous wisdom that many people don't possess.
They can be difficult, yes. But they can also bring great joy, as they have in many of the cross-cultural, multi-racial adoptions I have witnessed. It all depends on whether it is talked about openly and honestly...or whether the adoptive family tries to ignore it with stupid talk about love being "color-blind" and so on. If your adopted kid looks different than you, people will talk. The question is, what will you (and your kids) say?

Also, when the alternative to a mixed race or cross-cultural adoption is the kid languishing in an orphanage or being shuffled from foster home to foster home...well. Even with the problems, isn't it better to be part of a permanent family?


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vison
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 12:54 am
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I have no easy answers. But I've seen the problems and they are horrific.

I just wish we would get to that era where no child is ever unwanted, or homeless or unloved. It isn't coming fast enough, I can tell you that.

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enchantress
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 1:05 am
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Racism touches everyone and that horrendous comment could have been made to a little black girl coming from a biologically natural black family, and done as much damage.
Horrible comment to make to anyone, especially a child who trusts and believes easily.
With inter-racial adoptions, one has to address the issue and as soon as its age appropriate gently explain things. I think this is due to any adopted child though, whether he/she could pass for a natural child being of the same race, or whether he or she looks totally racially different. Even if I adopted a baby I would have to let them know of their origins... I think its information that I would have no right to conceal.

The families I have know in my experience who have adoptded Asian children as babies have shared this fact with the kids as soon as they were capable of understanding. I know one family where the adopted girl is now a teen. Her parents handled the issue skillfully, and though she struggles a bit with issues of racial identity, she has great love and respect for her family, and understands how different her life would have been had she not been adopted from China.

Jewelsong, I know. Im not saying "for sure never never" but this has held pretty constant for me till now... we shall see.
If I know Im not ok with the idea of pregnancy, I think its more responsible to refrain from having a child, than having one and then resenting him or her for the experience or something. If I am ever ready, I will know...or perhaps I will continue to find thorough meaning and fulfillment in other things :)

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theduffster
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 1:25 am
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The Watcher, my kids are spaced similarly to yours. Rebecca is the oldest, she will be 22 in a week or so. Jessica is going to turn 20 in May. And Ellie is 9. :)

Raising her is so different than it was raising Rebecca and her sister. To say we're more relaxed is only the half of it. We're raising one child with twice the money we had when the older 2 were small.

I definitely disagree with the idea that, if you say you don't want children, you're selfish. I have a sister, one year older, who had an on-and-off relationship with a married man for 20 years. A few years ago, she got pregnant, and her choices, as SHE saw them, were to have an abortion or to have the baby and keep it. She had already had 3 abortions, was approaching 40 and wanted a child. I thought it was totally selfish, her life was a shambles, she was an alcoholic, no money, etc., etc.

Long story short, her child is torn between her mother-who is now a convicted felon-and her father, whose wife begrudgingly accepts having his daughter stay with them only because she knows life with her mother is so messed up. This child should have been given up for adoption, her life would not have been one of courtrooms, sleeping in sleeping bags because mom had to sell the beds to buy cocaine, knowing dad's wife resents having her around, constantly moving from one apartment to another after mom gets evicted...my heart just breaks for my neice. She would definitely have been better off living with an adoptive family, but my sister HAD to have a child, no matter what.

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jewelsong
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 1:35 am
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theduffster wrote:
.Long story short, her child is torn between her mother-who is now a convicted felon-and her father, whose wife begrudgingly accepts having his daughter stay with them only because she knows life with her mother is so messed up.
OT: duffster, this sounds like an abusive situation. Is there anyway you, as a family member, could intervene? I mean, I think if I knew of a situation like this, my response would be to call DSS. Would your sister let you take your niece for a while - give you temporary guardianship while she "got her act together?" (Realizing that it could become permanent?)

I don't know; this just sounds like something begging for intervention.


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vison
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 1:37 am
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The above story says it very well.

Any idiot can have a baby. And any idiot often does.

I don't make light of those who can't conceive. It must be very hard to deal with if you really want a baby.

But one thing the world isn't short of is people.

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theduffster
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 1:45 am
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Jewel: No, my sister and I do not speak. Problem is, my sister can be so charming. She has all these people from her church praying for her, and helping her financially. Eventually, they, like me, our other brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, etc. will learn the hard truth: she is a user. She will bleed them dry and then move on.

My neice's father adores his daughter. When she's there, he absolutely dotes on her. I've witnessed it, and there is no doubt in my mind that they have a very solid, loving and special relationship. He's trying to get full custody, and his wife is willing to go along with it, as long as they hire a nanny. Bless her. I've never met the woman, but any woman who is willing to have her husband's "love-child" move in, is a saint in my book.

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 8:53 am
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I thought a lot about this thread and the things I said I said in here and first wanted to apologise if any of the people did not appreciate the words of being sorry for those who do not desire children. I am not a natvie speaker of English and maybe the idea I wanted to express comes clearer across with some explanation.

For me, having and raising children is such a source of joy, such a source of experience and love that I would love it if everybody has this in his life. I regret that it can't be the case for all people to experience such hapiness. I can however rationnally understand that having children might just not be this blissfull for everybody else - but despite the rational understanding and examples in my close friends and family, I still think that everybody should be able to experience this hapiness. Now, for other persons maybe this fulfillment comes from other satisfactions... I can't imagine it.

Now to pregnancy: I did not enjoy being pregnant. It was a necessary evil.... I hated being big, my back hurt terribly, they worried me because both of my kids were very small at birth, I never recovered the silhouette I had before and it still causes me sorrow... not to talk about other sorrows I have mentionned in other fora ;). I can still rationnally understand why a woman does not want to be pregnant, but I think that it is something that come from a western overcivilised society... where you have the possibility to decide over your body. Everybody's free to handle this in the way he or she wants, I find it a pity to cut ourselves so much from our biological roots.

Adoption... in february 2003 I had a misscarriage, although I had a IUD at this point... I had been pregnant without knowing and without wanting it... and yet it was a great shock to loose this unborn soul. I was sad for months after it... I am a third and clearly unwanted child, although later loved by my parents, and not having this third child was for me like denying myself the right to be born. Facing my distress, my husband proposed me to try to have a third... but in August of the same year, the positive pregnancy test confirmed a tube pregnancy which had to be interrupted. My doctor had very strongly advised me not to try... and this time advised me again not to try again. It was a devasting moment. (And it was around that time that I wrote this memorable RP duel with Barad-Dur, if ever you want to tell him enchie, I wrote all my hatred of the world in there and it was better than any therapy)

At this time, we thought very seriously about adoption: my dream was to adopt an afghan girl - I have a connection to the country, which I have visited as a child, my cousin used to live there, and the future of a girl is more than compromised in this country. Also, even if I am absolutely crazy for my two boys, not having a girl, a little girl is difficult to accept. We started the administrative side, but very quickly my husband became aware of the fact that he could not do it, so of course we bowed out of the process. I am (and was) aware of the difficulties of cross-cultural/racial adoption - but maybe living in an extrememly tolerant and multi-cultural environnement in Geneva felt ready to face this issue.

I have made my grief and accepted things as they are. After all I am very fortunate. I have two lovely healthy children, live in the city of my dreams, I adore my job. I feel fortunate.

I also see that not everybody blossoms in parenthood. My sister had an avortion when she was 27, and then two children later, from a husband from whom she is separated now. Especially being alone with the children, she is overchallenged by the situation, constantly screaming at the kids. Her second son, my nephew has been diagnosted with a form of autism and I don't know at all how she will face his special needs. But she wanted her children badly and never talks about the avortion. Maybe she was not meant to be parent, or maybe not of small children or of boys... but then I don't think any parent is perfect, and we all have to live with the defaults of the family in which we are born. It makes life challenging and interesting.

Once more I apologise if I have offended someone by telling that I was sorry for those who did not want to have children. It's difficult for me to imagine that someone can be as happy without children as with. But that's just me - so maybe it's good that I have children ;)

Last edited by Nin on Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Elian
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 9:08 am
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Thanks for clarifying that, Nin...I can only speak for myself, of course, but the way you explained it made a lot more sense to me, and I think I know what you mean now. :)

(Though I still think I'll be more than happy without having kids. ;):D)

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enchantress
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 9:31 am
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Thank you Nin. :) Like El said, that really helped.
Im glad your little ones are such a source of joy to you, and you sound like you make a most wonderful mom... :)

:hug: to you dear... the trials you went through sound very difficult. Miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies... *shudder* - your story exemplifies the types of risks that contribute to scaring the living daylights out of me when it comes to pregnancy... You are a very strong lady to have pulled through it all.
Im glad RP writing with B-D helped you channel the negativity... I will let him know since you allow it.... :)
Getting things out in writing is something Im very familliar with and do on my own, so I know how therapeutic it can be.

Just one note on what you said about people (women?) being divorced from our biological destinies...I personally wouldnt call our Western world "overcivilized" (we still have a long way to go I think ;)), and I for one am very glad I have the right to decide over my own body!!! Perhaps like all of us, I am somewhat a product of my day and age, location and upbringing, but to me the right to decide for one's own body is inextricably tied to personal freedom and human rights... I do not feel nostalgic at all for times when this freedom was not in women's power.

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Leoba
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:00 am
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On inter-racial adoption: I believe that in the UK it's pretty much frowned upon now by the authorities. Social services try to place a child with parents of the same background. So there are a good number of white Anglo-Saxon families waiting to adopt babies, whereas the glut of children wanting to be adopted are toddlers or older and often from Afro-Caribbean backgrounds.



I'm relying on the fact that I will feel different if and when I hold a child of my own in my arms. I've always known I wanted to have kids at some point - indeed within a week of starting to 'date' [for want of a better word] Din I told him we were going to have kids together. ;)

Last edited by Leoba on Mon 21 Mar , 2005 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:25 am
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yeah, yeah i am still very young and that may very well be the reason i am not that fond of the idea of ever having kids. this can change of course in due time ;)

I have friends already talking they'd like children in their twenties as early as possible to be young mothers. I see them cooing over babies in the strets and i just don't see the fuss. yes being able to give life to a human being is wonderful but it's the process before that that terrifies me.

I am the result of a very dangerous pregnancy and had only a 40/50% survival chance.I nearly killed my mother in the end and she too never looked like she once did. My family has a history of miscariages and dangerous/near death experiences. Not to mention a horrible choice in father who always end up leaving and abandoning the family.

Is this a reason to abstain from children?

like i said i am not vowing i'll never have kids but they just terrify me in their own way :P

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Alatar
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:43 am
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I realised that my post might be contentious but I did not expect the argument to be "You're a guy so shut up". There were some reasoned arguments which I agreed with, particularly in cases where there may be medical difficulties with a pregnancy, but my argument was against the "easy option" of adoption rather than pregnancy. It reminded me a little of the current trend among the wealthy and celebrites to go for "Elective" sections because they are "too posh to push". And before anyone jumps down my throat, this comment was passed to me two nights ago by a midwife who has seen more births, natural or section, than the rest of us put together.

I might point out that as a guy with 3 kids I have more experience with pregnancy than some of the people telling me to shut up. That said, I'll take the hint and leave the discussion on having babies to the women, cause apparently as I guy I'm not entitled to an opinion!

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 10:59 am
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Hey Alatar, with my situation pretty much identical to that of your brother, I can fully sympathise and understand what you're saying, including all. The German chancellor, e.g., adopted a three year old russian girl last year, with him way in his fifties. And I'm living in fear that the buggers at the Amt für Jugend und Gesundheit deny me the right to adopt because 1st they're buggers who muddle up the forms and 2nd I'll be 40 next year.
I'm sure you did not include potential mothers with physical problems in your post, but show-offs who don't want their luxury bodies ruined. For myself, withholding the "right" to become a mother from my wife is one of my life's tragedies, and I so wish I could echoe samaranth and her story.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 2:48 pm
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Of course you have a right to speak up, Alatar. Pregnancy changes the male, too:
Quote:
Feeling Her Pain

The Male Pregnancy Experience
By Michael Polinski


"My personal morning sickness started soon into the first trimester," says Joe Robinson, husband of Jess and father of a 5-month-old baby girl. And that's not all Robinson experienced during his wife's pregnancy: He shared just about every pregnancy symptom with her but labor. He gained almost 25 pounds, developed cravings, suffered nausea and tossed and turned at night. What Robinson experienced is called a sympathetic pregnancy or Couvade Syndrome.

Couvade in its narrowest sense refers to the practice in which a father simulates labor and childbirth shortly after the birth of his child to demonstrate his role in reproduction or to ease the mother's pain by sharing in it. It has come to mean, however, the father's sharing of sundry pregnancy symptoms with his wife anytime during the pregnancy or shortly thereafter.

The frequency of Couvade is unknown, but some researchers estimate that it affects from 11 to 65 percent of expectant fathers. The onset of male "pregnancy" symptoms usually starts near the end of the first trimester and generally stops with the birth of the child. Couvade also seems to be a universal phenomenon, with cases reported across cultures, continents and centuries.

But what causes Couvade? For years, researchers have sought the answer to that question using cultural or psychological reasoning. For example, in a 1994 article, a group of Italian researchers wrote that Couvade appears "to be the psychosomatic equivalent of primitive rituals of initiation into paternity." And in a 1991 article, Dr. H. Klein of the University of Texas Medical Branch reviewed some of the possible causes of Couvade such as "somatized anxiety, psuedo-sibling rivalry, identification with the fetus, ambivalence about fatherhood or parturition envy."

Perhaps it's something simpler, something closer to home and closer to the heart. That's what Robinson thinks. "I firmly believe that these 'symptoms' were the result of something a little more spiritual," he says. "A kind of symbiotic connection that she and I felt not only toward each other, but to our little girl growing inside of her."

Or, maybe it's not in their heads or in their hearts – but in their hormones.

In the first two studies of their kind, Canadian researchers Dr. Katherine E. Wynne-Edwards, a professor of biology at Queen's University, and Dr. Anne Storey, a professor of psychology at Memorial University, examined the saliva and blood samples of expectant fathers for hormonal changes at different times during their partners' pregnancies, typically beginning testing at 10 weeks and ending a month after birth.

What Drs. Wynne-Edwards and Storey found were significant changes in the men's levels of the following hormones: prolactin, a female hormone involved in milk production and possibly maternal and paternal behavior; estradiol, a principal form of the female hormone estrogen; cortisol, a hormone related to stress responsiveness; and testosterone, a male hormone associated with aggression.

Specifically, the doctors found in their first study that prolactin concentrations were higher in the men sampled in the last few weeks before the birth. Cortisol concentrations were also higher before the birth whereas testosterone was reduced in the weeks immediately after the birth.

In the second study, when compared to a control of non-fathers, the expectant fathers had lower levels of cortisol and testosterone and reliably detectible levels of estradiol, which is usually found in very low levels in men. Suppressed levels of testosterone after the birth were found again in a majority of the men.

Taken together, the two studies suggest that "men are experiencing hormonal changes associated with parenthood and that those changes are similar to maternal changes." Dr. Wynne-Edwards says the change in hormones may make them "brain parents already" and possibly more willing and better prepared to care for their children.

"If hormones are changing in men, then we might expect to see behavior changes," says Dr. Wynne-Edwards. But she quickly adds, "Hormones don't make humans do anything. They alter the threshold for things happening, making it easier or harder for certain things to happen." In other words, environmental and personal factors interact with hormonal changes in a complicated behavior-determining dance.

Despite the ground-breaking nature of her research, Dr. Wynne-Edwards cautions against generalizing before researchers have looked at other cultures and other groups of men who are less involved parents than these Canadian volunteers.

Still, what might this mean for men experiencing a sympathetic pregnancy? Unfortunately, nothing yet. At this point, the causes of Couvade remain speculative, and the new research merely hints at a biological possibility to go along with the existing explanations of cultural and psychological factors.

In the end, the cause of Couvade probably doesn't matter to the average man going through it. "Despite all the nausea, the sleep deprivation and the coping with weight gain, I know that we wouldn't have had it any other way," Robinson says. "I was proud to experience what I could with what she was going through. It made me feel a lot more involved and a lot less passive. This also comforted her, as she was not the only one."
http://www.pregnancytoday.com/reference ... malepg.htm


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Nin
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:42 pm
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Mummpizz - I think that for a woman it can be much more enjoyable not to be the mother of your children than to be the mother of many other men's children.

But you know that I think that, don't you?

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 4:44 pm
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Nin wrote:
But you know that I think that, don't you?

I do. :)

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tolkienpurist
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Alatar,

Certainly men are entitled to their opinions - and indeed, I made an effort to point out to you other reasons that women might not want to be pregnant (other than just what you called the "icky" factor), rather than dismissing what you said entirely out of hand because you are male. However, you MUST expect that, as a male, when you tell women that to parent a child, they should endure pregnancy - that's going to be viewed with great frustration by many women. I can't think of a wonderful parallel that would apply to males, but I will say that I've refrained from adopting an opinion on circumcision, particularly during my years of practicing Judaism, because I didn't feel that, as a female, my views could be anything other than that of an outsider. (C'mon, someone - there's got to be some better parallel than that? Anyone?)

Also, I want to point out that just because some of us have not had children ourselves does not mean that we have not had "experience" with pregnancy the same way that a man who has also never been pregnant might. These include supporting close friends and family members through their pregnancies (and miscarriages, and life-threatening situations that add up to a little bit more than "icky"). Men and women are fundamentally unequal in the childbearing process, and one must take this into account. For example, to reference Judaism again - in its traditional form, men are required to father at least one male and one female child, while women have no such requirement...it was considered fundamentally unfair to require something that could be so dangerous and life-threatening of Jewish women.

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ellienor
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TP, I know this is a while back, but I wanted to address a comment you made about not wanting to have children because it would derail a high powered career that you worked so hard for.

In some ways I am a 20 years older version of you (not near so smart or ambitious though :D ) in that I never felt a yearning to have children, never definitely planned to have children, and had many other important priorities, one of which was career. I worked as a scientist and then went to law school, planning on a brilliant career as a patent attorney.

Then--I complicated matters. I had a child (during law school) and am expecting my second. I SO hear you. I really thought I could "do it all"--and I am. I am working full time with my daughter in a wonderful Montessori preschool. Here I am, law firm, basically no time off, no vacation, job-must-always-come-first.

But it's hard. It's miserable. I wish I could do my career part time. (not an option at my law firm). I want to spend more time with with my daughter. She misses me. I miss her. Spending time with her is so rewarding, and she thrives in her mommy's presence. It is only going to get worse when my second arrives. I remember when she was a baby, it was almost a physical pain to be separated from her. For what, exactly? To serve clients? To make money? I like working, but I'm giving up a lot to do it. Frankly, if my husband weren't chronically unemployed :rage: I would have downshifted my career to accommodate motherhood.

And this is from a woman who never yearned to have children, and had other priorities in life. I truly feel like I'm on the pointy horns (ow! ow!) of the dilemma, every day.


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Alatar
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Posted: Mon 21 Mar , 2005 7:48 pm
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I understand your point TP, and I've tried to make it clear that I'm talking about women who choose adoption as a easy alternative to the discomfort of getting pregnant. I'm not referring to those who have genuine medical reasons for not getting pregnant.

To turn the tables on you somewhat, let us assume that you are married and your husband desperately wants to have children of his own. In this case, your decision to adopt is forcing him into the position of either leaving his wife and seeking a like minded mother or of abandoning his need to father children of his own. In such a case would you be prepared to allow your husband to impregnate a surrogate mother?

I'm simply raising this as an issue because, although it's true that men do not (usually) have to suffer through their partner's pregnancy, they also do not have the opportunity to do so. We are completely dependant on our partners willingness to carry our child.

There are two sides to every story.

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