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Philosophical thoughts on the Holocaust

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 3:04 am
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But the point is that this was one incident - they didn't round up 4000 Poles every day, carted them into the wood, shot them, got rid of the bodies and organized a highly effective bureaucracy to do the sums.

I'm not saying that this massacre isn't an awful crime - I hadn't heard of it, btw - but my point was that all the other atrocities share only single ones of the characteristics I mentioned.

Maybe it IS true that things in the other regions mentioned are just forgotten? Maybe there was a plan to kill all the Polish army or even to eradicate the whole Polish people - and Stalinism was just so much more successful than Nazism in hiding it?

Guru, yes, Japan invasion in China is another example - I had thought of it, but there were so many examples already, and I had already added the Khmer, which Din hadn't mentioned. Sorry for the derailment of your thread - I could start a new thread if you'd prefer?

Sunsilver, the documentary I saw yesterday was made by Spielberg and the Shoah foundation.

There's a problem with trying to include all crimes which hasn't been mentioned yet, and maybe it's a problem mainly from a German perspective, but in fact I don't think so.
Here, we have always been taught to concentrate on the Holocaust rather than for example Stalinist crimes because looking at the things your neighbour has done will invariably tempt you to put your own sins in relation to theirs. You are tempted to feel less ashamed about what the Nazis did, when you think that Stalin did the same!

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Ethel
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Posted: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 2:01 pm
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Interesting post, truehobbit. I think that, on the whole, the German people have coped with a dark history pretty well. I admire the effort to face and acknowledge the past. Japan has never done this in regard to their wartime behavior, not just in China but throughout Asia.

I do think that some aspects of the Shoah are unique. The determination to rid not just Germany, not just Poland, not just Russia, but the entire continent of Europe of Jews - that was unusual. In the middle of a war which they were losing, the Nazis continued to rid any territory under their control of Jews, almost as a primary objective. They devoted troops, trains, and logistical effort to it even when these were needed for the war. That bespeaks an impressive devotion to murder. There's also something particularly chilling about having that famous German efficiency put in service of an objective so wholly evil.

But in terms of the magnitude of the crime, it can't really be considered unique even in modern history. Consider the Armenian genocide carried out by the Turks. In 1915-16, the Turks decided to rid their empire of Christian Armenians. They did a good job. Of about 2.5 million Armenians, the Turks killed about 1.5 million. (The rest fled.) They used many of the methods later made more famous by the Nazis - concentration camps, death marches, starvation, and outright murder. This was, apparently, an inspiration to Hitler:
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German consuls stationed in Turkey, including Vice Consul Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richner of Erzerum who was Adolf Hitler's chief political advisor in the 1920s, were eyewitnesses. Hitler said to his generals on the eve of sending his Death's Heads units into Poland, "Go, kill without mercy . . . who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians."
It's interesting to me that no one in this thread has even mentioned the Armenian genocide. I probably wouldn't be aware of it either except that I lived for years in a California city that had a large ethnic Armenian population - all of whom originally arrived there as refugees from the genocide.


If Stalin's only crime had been the Katyn Forest massacre, we would not mention him in the same breath with Hitler. But of course it wasn't. There are no "hard" numbers regarding Stalin's murders - Russians are not the meticulous record-keepers that Germans are. But a generally accepted estimate is about 20 million. Stalin identified many different types of people as enemies, and used many different methods to destroy them - the effort was therefore not as focused as the Shoah. But 20 million is an impressive number even by Nazi standards. A lot of them disappeared into the gulags, and died there of hunger, brutality, or a bullet in the back of the neck. The single most horrifying episode was the artificial Ukrainian famine of 1932-33. The Ukraine was always the richest agricultural region of the Russian empire; there was strong nationalist sentiment there and no fondness for Soviet ways. So in the fall of 1932 Stalin sent troops to collect the entire harvest, sealed the borders, and left the Ukrainians to starve to death. Some 7 or 8 million of them did, in a single winter. Surely this is evil on a Hitlerian scale.


Is it genocide when it's your own people? A difficult linguistic question. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia are believed to have murdered some 2 million (20%) of their own people in 1975-79.


I could go on... but I'm depressing myself.


I do not mean to minimize the horrors of the Jewish genocide by mentioning these other crimes. I watched the film Shoah last week, and I'm still having nightmares. I think the best book about the Holocaust that I have read is Primo Levi's "The Drowned and the Saved" - does anyone know it?

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Dindraug
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Posted: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:27 pm
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I have heard of Armenia, but I don't know much of the detail. It was one of the last efforts of the Ottoman Empire before it finally died. Utterly tragic.

But this was sort of the point of my earlier post. I did not mention Pol Pot TH, or many others. I did not mention the Conquistadors, or the Witchfinders or the Romans either.

But I am still intrigued as why the Jewish genocide is an issue for the world whan so much was happening. It could be the names, but I think its more to do with flag waving. We don't hear much about China (although to be fair, more died in the Civil wars of 1949 than the Japanese occupation).

The impression I have is that people like to point to the Holocaust and say either; we were bad, we let it happen or we were good, we saved them.

Or is it that most European countries have had pograms?

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 11:04 pm
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No real need to get another thread. This one seems to be going where I was looking...

Why should we remember these things? Why do we remember the Holocaust? Because it happened, and we should remember them so it doesn't happen again? This seems to be the most common answer. My point was we should remember them for that, but in the realization that we ourselves could do it, not "some other person". I'm sure the Germans in this thread *nods to Nin* realize this better than any.

I guess I'm just a bit perplexed as to why the nitty gritty details, such as documentaries, are so important to people...it almost, to me, seems like people are glorifying the horror...glorifying the martyrdom of those who died. Does it really make those who survived better for that fact? Why do we think "wow, this is so amazing" when they were just the ones lucky enough not to die. Do we glorify them for that? Basically, I think "How" we remember is just as important as "what" we remember...

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Dindraug
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Posted: Sun 30 Jan , 2005 5:28 pm
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Yes, one of the things that upsets me about is that every documentory, every news broadcast, every newspaper report that covered it showed some poor individual, either Jew or German, who had been part of this and were having their memories dragged up.

It was the poor old Jew, who had been a young man when he last saw his mother or father being taken into the 'shower block', and was taken to the place where he stood and watched that 60 years ago. And then he was interviewed at the spot. You could see the horror, the upset, the anger, the hate on his face, all dredged up for the media to revel in, so that we can feel whatever it is we are suppost to feel. The man was in his eighties, it was unfair to do that to him. When he walked up to the camp he had a look almost of triumph or revenge, and yet he was shattered by it. He was not ready or prepared for what he would see. It was horrible to watch.

We should not forget what has happened, but we should also not revell in it and treat thoses who suffered and suffer still with compassion.

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Sun 30 Jan , 2005 6:35 pm
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Dindraug wrote:
Yes, one of the things that upsets me about is that every documentory, every news broadcast, every newspaper report that covered it showed some poor individual, either Jew or German, who had been part of this and were having their memories dragged up.
[Wonders if anyone saw the last part of her previous post]
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To me, these personal testimonies are far more relevant than any government platitudes and promises. To truly understand the magnitude of something like this, you must put a human face on it. For me, that 'face' was the survivors I have met, and my High School history teacher, who was Jewish, and had been an intelligence officer during WWII. He told us what it was like, from his viewpoint, as a Jew, to hear about the liberation of the death camps. And, until that liberation came: NO ONE KNEW. Not even SIS, SHEAF, or any of the so-called intelligence operations. As one of the survivors at the memorial service said, "We were all alone."
Guru, Din, my feeling is until you put a human face to some tragedy like this, it's like remembering ancient history. For instance, when the walls of Jericho came tumbling down, no doubt, a large number of people were killed, but when we read about it in the Bible, do we feel any emotion? Any sorrow? No, we hardly spare them a thought. This is the danger with the Holocaust, and other mass exterminations. Eventually, the last survivor dies, and the details are relegated to the history texts, and become devoid of the power to shock or cause anger. It is so easy to push such events away, because they are not pleasant to remember. I think having our faces rubbed in them on at least a yearly basis is very necessary to keep them alive, and to keep alive the determination to never let them happen again.

Over my lifetime, the importance of Remembrance Day (Armistice Day) has faded. We used to get the afternoon off school. Those who were Girl Guides or Boy Scouts were expected to come to school in the morning dressed in their uniforms. Some of our teachers who had fought in the war wore their Legion uniforms (Canadian Veteran's Association). We sold poppies, and there was a competition to see who could raise the most money for the Poppy Fund. At 10:30, everyone would assemble in the auditorium, listening to speeches or poems about the war. We sang "In Flander's Fields", then at 11 o'clock, observed 3 minutes of silence, followed by the playing of Taps, then O Canada.

Now, it's quite different. Generally, schools still observe the minute of silence, but the prevailing attitude in many places is that Remembrance Day glorifies war, rather than being a time to remember the dead, and say, "NEVER AGAIN!" When I taught school in Alberta during the 80's, I quizzed my Grade 6 class about the day. Hardly any of them knew it honoured the signing of the treaty that ended WWI. None of them knew anything about the horrors of trench warfare of WWI: mud so deep you could drown in it, the cold, the rats, the lice. I read them poems from Robert Service's 'Rhymes of a Red Cross Man', and it was one of the few times you could have heard a pin drop in that class. (Service had been an ambulance driver during WWI, and his poetry describes the horrors of the war in detail. Very, very different from his Yukon poems, like Sam McGee.)

Nothing quite equals the power of a personal testimony. I was just reading yesterday how Yul Brynner's anti-smoking message has been one of the most effective commercials the Cancer Society has ever done.

So, Din, Guru, if it makes you uncomfortable to hear these testimonies: GOOD! It's supposed to.


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Dindraug
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Posted: Mon 31 Jan , 2005 8:56 am
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So, Din, Guru, if it makes you uncomfortable to hear these testimonies: GOOD! It's supposed to.
Oddly, I find no difference between reading testamonies of Holocaust survivors over fifteenth century accounts of brutality in France, England, Spain, Constantinopel, Acre, Jeruselum etc, or even Biblical strife. Glad you mentioned Jherico. Nasty situation, as was Troy, Masada etc etc.

There is no difference in the level of suffering as it is the individual that suffers. The only difference is in the numbers of individuals who suffer. Is the suffering of one man lass than that of a million?

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 7:12 pm
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Sorry, the significance of Armistace Day has somewhat diminished for me...when originally it was connected to the concept that it would be the end of war...we all know what happened to that.

My problem with personal testamonials is that they seem to diminish the events of which there aren't any survivors talking about. The world has been so obsessed with the Holocaust that the Japanese occupation is pretty much ignored. Ok, so maybe there isn't a complete connection there...but the attention is where the people are, and that's what I have a problem with.

The other thing is that the Holocaust pretty much Is ancient history, except for the fact that certain people, such as the Germans, still deal with it. But to me, not being a mainland European, not being alive during WWII, not being responsible for the intelligence failures...that's all it Can be, history. Now, if you started talking to me about the American disgrace of ignoring Africa, you might be able to shame me into mailing my representatives, and getting a form letter back saying "Shut up, We know what's best for you better than you do yourself".

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vison
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 6:12 pm
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A few years ago CBC radio did a documentary series on "Children in Wartime". It was very interesting, very well done. The last program in the series dealt with the death camps.

A woman, a survivor, told how she was separated from her mother and put on a train. She was about 8 or 9 at the time, alone and terrified, jammed into a boxcar with hundreds of other people. She managed to get herself to the back of the boxcar, leaning against the wall. She imagined that there was a boxcar behind her, and that her mother was sitting in it as she was, her back to the wall. She spoke to her mother, and she began to imagine that she could hear her mother's voice. The train rattled on, day and night, night and day. No stops. No food. No water. The child spoke to her mother, heard her mother's voice.

At last the train stopped and the people were pushed out onto the earth. The little girl looked. There was no car behind her car, only the caboose.

I made myself listen. I could scarcely bear it, but I made myself listen because I thought, well, she lived through it, the least I can do is hear her.

I know some survivors, they are very old now; I wonder how they could live, after what they endured. They lived to tell their story, that's what it comes to in the end. One man said he lived "for" all those who died, when he himself longed for oblivion and death.

When they are gone, the last living testaments die with them. Does this mean we will start to think of it as ancient history? I was alive when it happened, I was born in 1944. This isn't the War of 1812.

I don't mean to belittle even one murder. Whether the victim is an African or an Asian, or a European Jew. Whether the victim is a victim of Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot or some neighbourhood psychopath. Every one is a tragedy.

But there is something different about the Holocaust as perpetrated by the Nazis: the whole ghastly machinery, as someone pointed out above. Blueprints for gas chambers, specifications for ovens, cost analyses of slave labour, the rigid and nitpicking listing of names and possessions and the sorting of the dead into piles like cut lumber. The careful records, the proud guards photographed in their smart uniforms, the manufacture and distribution of special clothing for prisoners, the bleak horrible camps themselves sitting beside snug villages, men and women walking to "work" every day, no doubt singing out, "Good morning!" to the homegoing night shift.

There is absolutely nothing to say about it that can explain it, we can only accept it. It was the most terrible crime ever committed by men against men. It is the dreadful gold standard of atrocity. And it was not committed by savages in some far-off primitive land, or by Asians who are rumoured to care less about human life than we smug westerners. The Holocaust was committed by the nation of Goethe and the Brothers Grimm, people just like us. People with electric lights and automobiles and carpeted floors, radios. People who could read and write and enjoyed poetry and drama. People whose sisters and brothers emigrated to our countries and whose grandchildren are our neighbours. It happened less than 100 years ago! It happened yesterday. Some of those who endured it are still alive, some of those who committed the crime are still alive. You'd think that would be impossible, that some wrathful god would erase the criminals and lift the survivors up out of their pain.

It happened because they were able, in their minds and hearts and then in their actions, to believe the victims were "the other". It is that we must always guard against.

There is no "other". There is only us.


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Sunsilver
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 9:44 pm
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Wow. Terrific post, vison!

I live just a short distance away from what is arguably Canada's largest Jewish community: the Bathurst Street Corridor. It is no longer just a part of Metro Toronto...it has extended up into Thornhill, and it looks like it will soon cross the boundary into the south end of Richmond Hill. There's a sign in a field north of Hwy. 7, saying that a new synagogue is going to be built there soon.

I have had death camp survivors as my patients, seen their tatoos, heard their stories, and been incredibly moved by them.

My most recent encounter was with an elderly couple in T'ornhill (that's Thornhill with a Yiddish accent.) The husband had cancer, for which he was receiving a weekly injection of methotrexate. The wife had learned how to do the injections, and told me that they wanted to cancel the nursing visits, because they were managing all right on their own, and she was sure there were other people who must need the help more than they did. The visit turned into a bit of a social time after that, and she offered me tea and cookies. (I usually say 'no' to this, but this time I did not.)

I asked how they were managing with getting out of the house for appointments and such, and she said, "You know, it's our tradition to walk to synagogue on the Sabbath, but my husband and I are having a bit of a problem. It seems that every year they are moving the synagogue further away!"

I laughed, shaking my head that she could make such a witty joke about their declining health. Making light of adversity is embedded in the Jewish culture, and I think it is one of the reasons they have managed to survive centuries of persecution.

Before leaving, I asked to use their washroom. She showed me the way. Just outside the washroom door was a wall covered with old family pictures, and I stopped to look at them.

"My family," she said, pointing to one side of the wall, "and my husband's family, on this side." She began to identify the people in the photos, then, after naming the names, "This one died in the Holocaust, and this one and this one. These two survived...."

I think nearly 3/4 of both their families had been eliminated. I could not speak for the tears choking my throat. My parents have a similar picture wall at home, I thought to myself. What if this was MY family? What if they'd been Jewish?

When my visit was ended, she escorted me to the elevator, travelled down to the lobby with me, and saw me out the front door of the apartment. I knew I was being treated as an honoured guest, and, again, that made me choke up.

It's personal encounters like this, and personal testimonies that really level the playing field, and eliminate the 'us' and 'them' mentality. Until we do realize it IS all 'just us', as vison has so wisely said above, pogroms and genocides such as the Holocaust are going to keep happening.


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Berhael
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 9:53 pm
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Why aren't people like you in our governments, in our military? Why can normal people see this is clearly, that this was an awful monstrosity, and governments can't? What possesses men so utterly that they can think in terms of costs and benefits when it comes to human lives and suffering? How can anyone make a fellow human being suffer like that?

If only we could all do that, and put ourselves in other people's shoes, this certainly would not happen.

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vison
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 10:08 pm
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That was a good post, Sunsilver. As an aside, I didn't know you are a fellow Canadian!

Berhael, you're young. You can be part of the future where things like that don't happen. You can vote for decent men and women and you can alway speak out against evil.

But looking at the world right now, I'm not very optimistic. :(


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Berhael
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I try to do that, vison, but more often than not, the decent people get corrupted once they're in power. :(

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Sunsilver
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I didn't know that about YOU, either, Vison! Where are you from? I'm in Richmond Hill, just north of Toronto.

Ber, the problem is our governments are run by dominant males. The 'us' vs 'them' is embedded in the 'Y' chromosome. (I'm only being semi-facetious about this...)

Way back in High School, I discovered Robert Ardrey: African Genesis, The Territorial Imperative. He put forward the theory that war is embedded in our genes, as it is a natural instinct for animals to maintain and defend a territory. Nothing I have seen or read since has ever convinced me that he was wrong. I studied anthropology, and was fascinated by the behaviour of our closest genetic relatives, the great apes. At that time, chimps were regarded as peaceful forest dwellers, who would occasionally catch and kill a Coloubus monkey for a little variety in their vegetarian diet. (It would always be the males that did this, and they would band into a group, and help each other with the hunt, another very strong parallel to human behaviour.)

In the days since I attended university, a darker picture has emerged. Researchers have watched male chimps commit genocide on another band of chimps from a neighbouring tribe. Some of the females were allowed to live and were absorbed into the rival tribe.

Although Ardrey's theories were never popular with the scientific community, because he was a playwright by profession, and not a scientist, when I heard this bit of news, I could not help but think how right he had been! Other theories he put forward about extinct early relatives of Man have also been proven to be correct.... Australopithecus africanus did indeed use bones as weapons and tools, for example.

[sigh] I try not to think about his theories too much, because it does not give me a lot of hope for the human race.


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Amarie
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Posted: Fri 25 Feb , 2005 7:51 pm
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Guruthostirn wrote:
My problem with personal testamonials is that they seem to diminish the events of which there aren't any survivors talking about. The world has been so obsessed with the Holocaust that the Japanese occupation is pretty much ignored. Ok, so maybe there isn't a complete connection there...but the attention is where the people are, and that's what I have a problem with.
I was born and raised in the Philippines, and to be honest, I hardly learned much about the Holocaust as we were studying World War II and World History. I knew more about the Japanese campaign than anything else in WWII. My grand-aunt would tell me stories, as would my grandmother, having lived through the American Occupation and subsequently, the Japanese Occupation. It's not so much, in my part of the world that we ignore the Holocaust. I think, like someone brought up here, it's hard to really think about it when you haven't met any Jews. For the Europeans, it's hard to think about Japanese atrocities when you're living in a country where remnants of concentration camps still exist. When I moved to the US, I met a Jewish student, and I was bowled over, having grown up in a predominantly Catholic country.

I hope you don't mind my posting here. I had read your posts, and I found them intriguing. It seems like you're all Europeans/Americans here, and I thought that I could say a little something.

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Guruthostirn
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Of course you can add something...we lose a bit of perspective, all coming from similar backgrounds.

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