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Philosophical thoughts on the Holocaust

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Guruthostirn
Post subject: Philosophical thoughts on the Holocaust
Posted: Mon 06 Dec , 2004 8:48 am
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Ok, this is a very touchy subject. Sorry if I offend anyone.

It's a bit after midnight right now. I'm working on assignments for storytelling. I was thinking about Nin visiting Aushwitsh (sorry for spelling), and the thread which she started. At the time I read it, but I couldn't think of anything to say.

I finally figured out what my thoughts were on the topic. What most people say about the Holocaust is they can't believe humans could do it, how inhuman it is. The way I look at it, we should remember things like that, the truly horrific events in history like the English occupation of Ireland and the disgusting details about the man the legend of Dracula is based upon, impaling people alive and eating dinner amongst groves of dying people, not for how inhuman these events were, but as examples of humanity, and how we are not the angelic race that cannot fall to these extremes, but as the species that is perfectly capable of inflicting incredible harm and horrors. These things are lessons in humanity, letting us see what we ourselves, if we give up our self-control, might be capable of. They are memories that should never be lost because they give us incentive to stay controlled. I doubt there are many people who visit the ovens and gas chambers who think "yes, I can see how this is useful", but I do think there are many who would go there, and as I would, think of how easily they themselves could be caught up in events, and be the ones directing the traffic, deciding other people's fate. That's the real horror that the Holocaust, the torture and war crimes being revealed in Iraq (such as the Marine who shot a wounded Iraqi with no remorse), that to me, I see how that could have been me, how I could be easily caught up. These horrors should be remembered and told so that people can feel that, think not only of the horror of the events, but the horror of thinking that they themselves could be doing it.

Off Topic: Anyone want to turn the old discussion thread into a Philosophy forum? Preferably staying away from politics and religion, but I'd still love to argue metaphysics and whether Foundationalism can really give us knowledge...

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 06 Dec , 2004 9:31 am
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Regarding your thoughts, no comment for the moment, but I do think that a forum for heavier or more serious discussion could be useful after a while - maybe the old discussion forum could be used for it?

I would not say for philosophy, but also for questions about books, politics, general life interest.

If you want it, I can repost what I wrote about visiting Auschwitz....

For me it still difficult to say anything more.

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eärendil
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Posted: Tue 07 Dec , 2004 6:32 am
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Guru,

I think it goes far beyond the other events you are talking about. I mean, yes Britain occupied Ireland and Irish were considered second class citizens.
But what happened in the camps was far more horrible. It was more than just putting some people in such places and kill them; it was a destruction of their humanity.
I don't think I could tell you more than Arendt, but let say that in the camps they destroyed everything
- their legal persona was destroyed when they were parked in getthoes and then in train like animals to the camps: not considered "normal" citizens,
- if you've ever read Sophie's choice (I think it's the English title) you'll se that they destroy the moral persona because they make the victim the executioner. In that book there is this mother who - when she arrives in Auschwitz - is asked which one of her children will die now and which one will survive.

It's late and I'm not on philosophy mode I guess but I really advise you to read Hannah Arendt's book on the subject; she's a reference for many.
But totalitarianism and the "solution finale" was an abject process that deprived people of what made them human, their very own conscience.

:grouphug: Nin, I can understand that you can't talk right now take your time darling :grouphug:

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Berhael
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Posted: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 5:34 pm
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For those of us in the UK, or with access to BBC on cable:
Quote:
Auschwitz: The Nazis...
Tue 11 Jan, 9:00 pm - 9:50 pm 50mins

...and the Final Solution. Surprising Beginnings

It was the site of the largest mass murder the world has ever seen, yet few people know its full history.

To mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, this landmark series charts the evolution of the camp and the mentality of the perpetrators, and shows how the place related to the Nazis' overall campaign of extermination.

With the help of computer graphics based on plans of the camp unearthed in the 1990s, dramatised reconstructions of the key moments of decision and interviews with people who were there including former members of the SS, this series aims to be the most complete history of Auschwitz ever made for television.

This first episode tells the story of the beginnings of the camp and how it was originally intended for a very different purpose than the murder of Jews. This programme contains some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Wed 12 Jan , 2005 8:26 am
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On a side note: The English occupation of Ireland, in its early stages, went far beyond "second class citizens". From what I've heard, to the English, the Irish were not even considered human. However, that's not so important, it's just another example of how humanity IS capable of ignoring certain, so-called "self-evident facts" about human beings.

I wish to reiterate my initial point: my thoughts did not take the holocaust as a subject, but as an object. I know there are lots and lots of stuff out there. But each description and detail of terrible crimes and such merely reinforce my point that it should not be remembered as merely history, but as a lesson: that humans are NOT refined and civilized by nature, and even the most decent can commit unimaginable atrocities. All that is required is that a person is caught up in something they believe in, or that they, for some reason, lose the mindset of "love everyone" (or some similar concept).

Now it gets Really controversial. Arguably, the greatest manipulators of people, who, in a non-morally loaded sense are geniuses, such as Adolf Hitler, are those that can bring people into such a state. They are probably the most dangerous individuals out there, the ones who deliberately know this fact, and consciously take advantage of it. I recall once hearing that Hitler never actually believed all that stuff about "the superior race" and the propaganda against the Jewish people...I can't confirm or deny this, but it would make sense...because, when you look at what happened from an objective sense, it worked to give him power.

My point is we shouldn't remember the atrocities of the Holocaust "for pity", so that people feel compassion for the individuals who suffered and died, but so that we Know that we ourselves could have been one of those who're partially responsible if we were in the circumstances of those people. We should remember to protect the individuals who may suffer in the future, since the past cannot be changed but the future can be controlled.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sat 15 Jan , 2005 11:15 pm
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I haven't had time to read this before, but I think you raise some excellent points, Guru.

The frightening part of the Holocaust is how easily that apparently rather thin layer of what we call civilization is stripped off.
It makes you realize how many people only behave themselves because they are afraid of punishment if they don't - as soon as you let them know it's ok to abuse their fellow men, they will do so.
It makes you realize how easily people are misled into applauding the grossest offenses.
No, it doesn't only happen in Nazi-Germany, it's happening all around the world all the time. But Nazi-Germany makes the best lesson about it, because it's on such a large scale, and so well organized and documented.
Quote:
how easily they themselves could be caught up in events, and be the ones directing the traffic, deciding other people's fate. That's the real horror that the Holocaust, the torture and war crimes being revealed in Iraq (such as the Marine who shot a wounded Iraqi with no remorse), that to me, I see how that could have been me, how I could be easily caught up.

I think war and training for war de-humanizes people - I don't see how you can learn to kill people and remain a normal person at the same time.
Nazi-Germany is similar to this in that people were also trained to disregard humane ideas and feelings, they were purposefully de-humanized by the leaders.
Yes, it's shocking to see how this is possible at all, but unless you are exposed to severe measures to achieve this state of mind, I don't think a normal person would fall into that kind of behaviour so easily.
Or maybe I'm overly optimistic. :)

For further watching/reading on the Holocaust:
There are very many excellent documentaries. A classic, however, is Alain Resnais' "Nuit et Brouillard" ("Night and Fog")

A book that comes to mind is Fania Fenelon, Playing for time, which, however, I didn't have the strength to finish reading.
Not a famous book or anything, and certainly not for an introduction into the topic. I'm just mentioning it because it was just too shocking for me to read.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Sun 16 Jan , 2005 8:50 pm
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Quote:
On a side note: The English occupation of Ireland, in its early stages, went far beyond "second class citizens". From what I've heard, to the English, the Irish were not even considered human. However, that's not so important, it's just another example of how humanity IS capable of ignoring certain, so-called "self-evident facts" about human beings.
Which particular occupation? Britain and Eire have been invading and holding and being beaten back for millenia. Some of the oldest Irish Myths like those about Crom Cruach or the early invasion cycles discuss this and they are dated to the henge culture period.

Just an observation.

Oh, and the English troops used for occupation in the latest series of invasions were second class citizens. Troops usually are. They treated the Irish as they were treated, brutal and savage. They knew no other way.

If you really want to read books about the Holocaust, you should try Primo Levi's works.

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Axordil
Post subject: The essential nature of war
Posted: Mon 17 Jan , 2005 3:41 pm
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truehobbit wrote:
I think war and training for war de-humanizes people - I don't see how you can learn to kill people and remain a normal person at the same time.
Absolutely. Training for war strips away the individual's morals and ethics and replaces them with military morals and ethics. With luck the individual can be put back together afterwards. This has been easier after some wars than others...

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Guruthostirn
Post subject: Re: The essential nature of war
Posted: Mon 17 Jan , 2005 8:58 pm
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Axordil wrote:
truehobbit wrote:
I think war and training for war de-humanizes people - I don't see how you can learn to kill people and remain a normal person at the same time.
Absolutely. Training for war strips away the individual's morals and ethics and replaces them with military morals and ethics. With luck the individual can be put back together afterwards. This has been easier after some wars than others...
Makes you wonder what, exactly, "human" means. An objective observer throughout time would claim that it is "human" to go around killing, raping, and pillaging, for, with the exception of our recent times, that's been one of the main human activities.

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Axordil
Post subject: hard to argue with that
Posted: Tue 18 Jan , 2005 4:27 pm
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But then, we're the only species we know of that can consciously decide to change its behavior.

The last few hundred years have been very much a two steps forward, one step back kind of advancement from the bloody chaos of the previous millenia.

Maybe one and a half steps forward. :(

But I maintain that most people raised within a stable culture who aren't insane are at least reluctant to kill another person, especially without direct and immediate provocation. And it's famously more convenient to just convince someone that the other guy isn't human than to turn them into a psychopath.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Tue 18 Jan , 2005 6:29 pm
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Quote:
The last few hundred years have been very much a two steps forward, one step back kind of advancement from the bloody chaos of the previous millenia.
Not convinced that the previous millenia wereworse than what we have now. Most history is tought through 'events', things people mark out as different from the norm or change. If you were to read through historical documents of say 15th Century you would see a whole list of bloody battles, murders, rapes and robbery.

However, you then look and realise that it covers the whole of the century, and the rates of deaths and rapes are really quite small in comparison. You look at a series of events like the Wars of the Roses, and realise that over thirty years, there were less than 18 weeks with soldiers in the field. You look at the robberies of the rich that went to trial, and there are a few dozen in the reign of Edward IV. They are listed, all of them. Shockingly few, so few you realise that either nobody is reporting theft so the state was in annarchy, or there were so few.

Compare that to todays figures, even given that more crime is reported now and population has increased, the levels have risen enormously since this alleged dark period.

I am really not sure that we have gone forward recently, I think we have gone back. We are becomeing brutalised. I am sure this is because, deep down, human beings are not designed mentally to live in such big communities.

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Axordil
Post subject: You may be right...
Posted: Tue 18 Jan , 2005 7:45 pm
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...it is more difficult to reconstruct accurate pictures of pre-Enlightenment life once you move away from the "Big Stuff" and the doings of people rich enough to get mentioned. But I was thinking about the fact that slavery is harder to find these days, thought not eradicated; that there are more places where one stands a chance of living to adulthood and even old age; that more women are being educated, and thus escaping the role of reproductive servant, than in previous history--that sort of thing.

On the flip side, war is worse than ever, and if anything more nearly omnipresent than ever too. And then there's things like the strain of our over-consumptive presence on the world we count on to support us and our heirs...

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eärendil
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Posted: Thu 20 Jan , 2005 6:24 pm
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ok I still need to reread what you guys posted so as to have as consistent answers as I could bring. I noticed you talked about Ireland; I did a thesis on that one so I'll come back with something but I wanted to share that with you. I'm still trying to find the news in English so I'm sorry but for the mo' it's in french in case Nin comes in to read ;) ;)...

148 ETATS MEMBRES POUR LA COMMÉMORATION DU 60E ANNIVERSAIRE DE LA LIBÉRATION DES CAMPS NAZIS
New York, Jan 19 2005 4:00PM
Pour la première fois dans l'histoire de l'ONU, l'Assemblée générale a décidé de tenir, le lundi 24 janvier 2005, une session commémorative extraordinaire. Il s'agit de la commémoration du 60e anniversaire de la libération des camps de concentration nazis. Cette décision a été approuvée par 148 des 191 Etats Membres. Elle marque peut-être le début de la commémoration, à l'Assemblée, d'autres événements.
En présence des représentants des pays qui ont pris l'initiative de cette session extraordinaire - Australie, Canada, Etats-Unis, Fédération de Russie, Israël, Nouvelle-Zélande et Union européenne -, le Secrétaire général a souligné aujourd'hui, lors d'une rencontre avec la presse, «l'importance qu'il attache à la commémoration du 60e anniversaire de la libération des camps de concentration nazis dans une session extraordinaire de l'Assemblée générale ».
Cette commémoration aura, selon lui, « une signification profonde » pour plusieurs raisons. « Premièrement, parce que la fondation de l'Organisation des Nations Unies est une réponse directe à l'Holocauste. Notre Charte a été écrite alors que le monde découvrait l'horreur des camps », a-t-il rappelé.
« Deuxièmement, il est essentiel, pour chacun de nous, de nous souvenir, de réfléchir et de tirer les leçons de ce qui s'est passé il y a 60 ans. Le mal qui a mené à l'extermination de six millions de Juifs dans ces camps menace encore aujourd'hui chacun d'entre nous. Ce n'est pas quelque chose que nous pouvons reléguer à un passé lointain et oublier. Chaque génération doit se tenir sur ses gardes pour s'assurer qu'une telle chose ne se reproduise jamais plus », a-t-il expliqué.
« Troisièmement, cette session devra aussi être vue comme l'expression
de nos engagements à édifier une Organisation des Nations Unies qui puisse réagir rapidement et efficacement à un génocide et à d'autres violations graves des droits de l'homme. Bien entendu, cette tâche est loin d'être accomplie », a-t-il reconnu.
De son côté, Jean Ping, Président de l'Assemblée générale, a fait remarquer que « c'était la première fois qu'une session commémorative
extraordinaire était organisée à l'Assemblée générale ». « C'est dire l'importance de cette commémoration », a-t-il ajouté.
Le Président de l'Assemblée a par ailleurs expliqué qu'il fallait l'accord d'une majorité des Etats Membres pour décider de la tenue d'une telle session. Mercredi dernier, 148 Etats Membres sur 191 s'y sont déclarés favorables.
Dans un <" http://www.un.org/News/fr-press/docs/20 ... 72.doc.htm"> message transmis le 11 janvier dernier par son porte-parole, le Secrétaire général s'était déclaré « satisfait » d'annoncer qu'une majorité d'Etats Membres avait donné son accord à la convocation de cette session extraordinaire.
S'adressant à la presse, au Siège de l'ONU à New York, Tom Lantos, réprésentant démocrate et membre de la Commission des relations internationales au Congrès américain, avait rendu hommage « à la détermination exprimée par le Secrétaire général de tout faire pour réaliser la convocation de cette session » et s'était déclaré « consterné par l'opposition de certains pays arabes à cette session », reflétant, selon lui, un manque de conscience et de perspective historique « difficiles à
comprendre dans la communauté internationale » (voir notre <"http://www.un.org/apps/newsFr/storyF.as ... nan&Cr1=AG"> dépêche du 11 janvier).
Répondant à la question d'un journaliste qui demandait aujourd'hui si
cette commémoration marquerait le début d'autres commémorations comme celle par exemple du génocide arménien, le Secrétaire général a avancé « qu'il serait possible qu'à l'avenir, les Etats Membres commémorent d'autres événements ».
Parallèlement à la session extraordinaire de l'Assemblée générale, deux
expositions sont organisées au Siège de l'ONU à new York. « Auschwitz, the depth of the Abyss » est une collection de photographies et de peintures des camps d'Auschwitz et Majdanek. « Afterwards, it's just a part of you », inaugurée hier, montre des photos prises par des groupes de jeunes qui ont visité les camps (voir le
"http://www.un.org/News/fr-press/docs/20 ... 12.doc.htm"
communiqué de presse du Service d'information des Nations Unies).
2005-01-19 00:00:00.000

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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 2:27 am
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Sorry, haven't had time to read up on the last posts - I just wanted to say that, as today was the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, you'll probably find documentaries shown on TV in many countries around this time.

I've just seen a documentation I hadn't seen before, "The Last Days", produced by the Shoah-foundation, four survivors telling their stories. Hadn't meant to stay up that long, but I couldn't get away from it - no matter how much you've discussed and analysed it for years, it just leaves you speechless. :(

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Dindraug
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 8:44 am
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I have a question.

We remember the Holocaust, and the Jews. We even acknowlage that 1 million gypsies were also interred and killed, along with homosexuals, mentally ill, Catholics and others.

But why do we not remember the Soviet citizens killed by Stalin in the same way, or the Chianese slaughter in the tens of millions by Mao, all in the name of progress.

Or the people of Rewanda.

Just a question, but why is the Jewish Holocaust the one we rememebr?

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Nin
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 11:43 am
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Dindraug, for me it is a question that I have answered before: Because it's European history. For me specifically, it is my history - German history.

And when you hear the survivors, and you see the complexity of the administration behind it, the level of organisation and the use of human material for blankets, clothings, gold, where the ashes of the burnt are used to make the ways through the camp less slippery for the next ones in the gas-chambers - it has something cynical in the core of its existence, that I don't see in any other genocide.

But I am German. I feel responsible for knowing my history. I am not Chinese, I am not Russian, I am not from Rwanda. And I don't think that it helps understanding a crime by comparing it to others.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 8:10 pm
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That's a good question, Din, I've asked myself the same quite a few times!

It does seem unfair, doesn't it, to apparently ignore so much suffering in other parts of the world - I mean, everybody's suffering deserves to be equally mourned and remembered.

But - fortunately, I think - we aren't able to grasp everything that happens to all the people at all times, so we have to be selective, and, unless we are predominantly interested in exotic things, it's the events nearer home that touch us more closely, like Nin said.

But there are other reasons, too, that we don't think of Cambodia or Rwanda as much as of Auschwitz.

One is simply the amount and sophistication of documentation. I've heard eye-witness accounts of survivors of the massacres in Rwanda on TV, and yes, they were gruesome, but mostly there doesn't seem to be any picture material, or not much. I've seen photos of heaps of bones and skulls from Cambodia and read numbers of the people killed or simply died of starvation in Russia and China - but all that cannot come as close to making the atrocities real to later generations as the mass of actual footage, photos, reports and relics of Nazi concentration camps.

Plus, it's no unimportant factor that the victims of the Holocaust were not a nameless mass, as is the case for the other genocides. The victims of the Khmer Rouge or of Mao, (and even of Stalin, I think), are millions of people whose names have never been entered into any birth registers, whose family histories are known only to them and are not recorded in writing anywhere. They are mainly illiterate and even the survivors would hardly have a chance to express what happened to them.
In case of the European Jewry, the victims have a recorded history, they are part of written European history, and they are for the most part well-educated, even well-to-do people, who in case of survival have the skills to make their story heard.

Of course, the lack of documentation for the other cases might be that I'm getting some things in the following wrong, due to lack of information, but there are some further factors, I think.

The main reason why the Holocaust is deservedly the most vividly remembered atrocity IMO is the sheer level of organisation, planning, duration of the whole and the fact that it took place in a country of what we call western civilization.
I'm not sure if I can explain the last aspect without coming across as racist, but the genocide in Rwanda, for example, seems to me to be in an entirely different category. From what I know of it, it is "merely" a tribal feud, blown out of proportion by I don't know what factors. But whatever caused the outburst, the peoples involved seem to have been killing each other habitually since times immemorial. The genocides in Asian countries, China or South East Asia, might also get a different perspective when you think that in some world views in Asian cultures human life isn't worth a fig anyway.
The Holocaust happened in a society, which had, at least theoretically, subscribed to high-flown ideals of humanity (although of course the treatment of the lower classes argues powerfully that these ideals were no more than theory), considered itself "enlightened" and "reasonable" and all that.
Indeed, one of the shocking factors of the Holocaust is that it is treated by the perpetrators as if it were perfectly reasonable.

Lastly, connected to this "reasonable" approach of the Nazis is the level of organization. The deaths of Stalinist Russia, as far as I know, were mainly through starvation and cold. I don't know what happened to the bodies - whether there was any organization to deal with them, if there was I haven't heard of it. There is also a lot of room in those parts of the world, which would make it easier to have large-scale killing without needing a lot of organization. In Asia and Africa, too, it seems more like a hoard of killers just combed through the countryside, killing everyone in sight.

In the Holocaust you have people sitting down quite calmly and discussing how to get rid of several million people most effectively. How to build and structure a camp, how to get rid of the bodies, whether and how to make use of the victims before and/or after killing them.

So, altogether, I think the Holocaust brings together different aspects of atrocities, of which I think the other instances of genocide only have one or two each. You have people who could just give rein to any perverse desire of torturing and killing, you have people freaking out in a rage of killing, people mistreating their fellow-men and not caring or actively wishing them to die in the process, and people who coolly thought about the "solution" to the problem posed by the aim to kill several million people. The Holocaust seems a more all-encompassing phenomenon ("totality" is a word that seems to describe most things connected to Nazism), and this, in addition to being naturally closer to us (in geographical and cultural setting), makes it more overwhelming (to me) than other atrocities in world history.

As I said yesterday, it's impossible to explain these things, so I'm not sure if I'm making sense here - it's just a summary of what my thoughts usually are when I think of the question you asked, Din.

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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 8:29 pm
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PR is incredible...

I see China mentioned here several times. However, I don't see many mentions of the Japanese occupation of China. Anyone know much about it? Think the Holocaust in the hands of people who never held those western ideals...but it's never mentioned. I don't think there are figures available for how many were killed. I'm not sure whether it was the Japanese that learned from the Germans, or it was the Germans that learned from the Japanese...they'd started on China several years before Germany invaded Poland.

*sigh* I'm kinda sorry to see this go into a discussion of the Holocaust, pretty much alone...I guess I should have expected it...

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 8:34 pm
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truehobbit, there WAS a very organized slaughter by the Russian Army. I cannot recall the name of where it took place....[something] Wood is the name. I think it may be in Poland.

Enemy soldiers were bound and taken by truck to an isolated spot, They were blindfolded with a sack over their heads, then executed with a single bullet to the brain. They were buried in a mass grave.

I recall one chilling detail about the executions. The pistols used got so hot that they would eventually jam. The execution team had several waiting as backups, so there would be no delay in the shootings. It was all carefully planned and carried out.

Not many people in North America are aware of this massacre, because the soldiers killed were the 'enemy' (Germans). If any of you with a better knowledge of European history can provide more details on this, please do so.

I can understand Nin's feelings. As for my two cent's worth, I believe the most important thing is to never forget. Polls done in different countries prior to this memorial day showed that many people didn't know where Auschwitz was, or why it was important. That is the saddest, most chilling thing I have heard.

I thank God for people like Steven Speilberg, who recorded as many personal testimonies of survivors as he could. To me, that is priceless, to have that body of evidence, to be able reach back and hear and see these testimonies once even the survivors are no longer with us. It is a true living memorial, which we can use against all those who try to deny the holocaust happened.

I have my own personal story of an encounter with two holocaust survivors, but I will save it for another time, as it always makes me cry when I tell it. To me, these personal testimonies are far more relevant than any government platitudes and promises. To truly understand the magnitude of something like this, you must put a human face on it. For me, that 'face' was the survivors I have met, and my High School history teacher, who was Jewish, and had been an intelligence officer during WWII. He told us what it was like, from his viewpoint, as a Jew, to hear about the liberation of the death camps. And, until that liberation came: NO ONE KNEW. Not even SIS, SHEAF, or any of the so-called intelligence operations. As one of the survivors at the memorial service said, "We were all alone."


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Ethel
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 8:56 pm
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Sunsilver wrote:
truehobbit, there WAS a very organized slaughter by the Russian Army. I cannot recall the name of where it took place....[something] Wood is the name. I think it may be in Poland.
It was Katyn Forest. Basically the Soviets murdered the entire Polish Army officer corps there - some 4000 strong. Until 1989 the Soviets blamed it on the Nazis despite the fact that it was done on Stalin's direct orders.

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