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The 9/11 Thread - oscar winning

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What is your opinion of the official 9/11 story?
I believe the official story 100%. The government has been completely honest on every detail.
  
4% [ 3 ]
I believe the general framework of the official story, even if some of the details might be wrong.
  
55% [ 40 ]
The official story is most likely true, but I sometimes have doubts.
  
15% [ 11 ]
I don't know what to believe.
  
10% [ 7 ]
I believe the official story is most likely a cover-up of some sort.
  
8% [ 6 ]
I believe this was a conspiracy meant to further the governments aggressive foreign policy (i.e. a "New Pearl Harbour")
  
8% [ 6 ]
Total votes: 73
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TheMary
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Posted: Sat 25 Aug , 2007 12:50 am
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Anytime I can help ;)

Fair enough Iavas. It's good that this hasn't consumed you as it once did :)

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cheerfulchaos
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Posted: Sat 25 Aug , 2007 5:58 pm
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Don't know if anyone caught it here, but there was a pretty good special on the 911 conspiracies on the History channel last week.

I wasn't very impressed with their "debunking" of the conspiracy theories. Whereas some of the explanations made sense and were rational, some of the "experts" just seemed to take cheap shots at the conspiracy theorists, insulting and demeaning them. The "experts" lost my respect at that point.

A good book to buy, Iavas, if you haven't already heard, is the one by Popular Mechanics called Debunking 9/11 Myths. It was pretty good, and it might help explain some of the holes in the official story.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sat 25 Aug , 2007 6:40 pm
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Hi cheerfulchaos. I didn't see THC special myself, but have read about what it contained, I don't know if you went to the link that I posted on the previous page about it:

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/august ... tricks.htm

It sounds like they did more than just turn to insults, they were dishonest about it from the start and even used cheap film-making techniques to show their bias.

Thanks for the book recommendation, but Popular Mechanics won't be getting any of my money :P I know it is just an extension of their infamous article on the subject. Talking of myths, PM having the last word on the subject is a common one. I think if you are going to read PM's book, you should also read:

Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory by David Ray Griffin

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10FTTALL
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Posted: Mon 27 Aug , 2007 3:59 am
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Iavas, I just had to check and see what you thought of the History Channel special...

Since you didn't catch it yet, I'll tell you about it. I realize you've read the "movement's" reaction to it. Maybe it's good you saw their reaction first. Because when you finally see the show, you will realize the "truth movement" reaction is almost entirely inaccurate. I suppose this should be no surprise, given all the twisting that is done to every aspect of the facts about 9-11, that they would also twist and misrepresent the show to make seem like yet another conspiracy against them. I almost laughed out loud when I pulled this thread up and read that link to prisonplanet's reaction, it's such a cliche. After seeing the show, I actually thought they would be pretty happy..but of course, the crowd fixated on conspiracy is going to think everything is a plot against them. Oh well.

The show presented some rational-sounding advocates for the truth movement. I didn't see them in any sort of bad lighting or rubbish like that. It looked very professional. There probably was slightly more time given to the debunkers, due to the simple fact that the truthers would postulate all the good old standard lines we have come to know and love, then the debunkers would by necessity have to respond with an explanation that took more time than the assertion. There were a large number of topics covered and the debunkers still only had but a short amount of time to get their responses out there. I'm sure this is what is meant when the prisonplanet response claims the debunkers did not present much evidence and resorted to glib comments, or whatever. To a certain extent this is right, but it is because to perform an indepth debunking on all the points raised would require a lengthy miniseries. I have done many hours of research and study, just replying to your threads, and watching the show, it did strike me that the responses were inadequate and that I could have done a better job myself.

I thought the Loose Change guys were given a fair shake, probably more fair than they deserved. They seemed intelligent, thoughtful, careful, and serious. It was mentioned that they had shifted their focus on several points, but the debunkers didn't even mention just how much of it has been authoritatatively refuted...to the point where at least the first edit is pretty much balderdash from beginning to end.

I don't know about the protests so much. They seemed to show a large number of protesters if I remember correctly. I wish they had spent more time on the protests, myself. I thought the footage of truthers acting like wild-eyed madmen, was pretty telling.

All in all, it seemed the History Channel was being rather fair, not even mentioning the nuttier theories like holograms. My opinion is that this is the high water mark of the truth movement, and something of which they should have been proud.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 27 Aug , 2007 12:56 pm
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Thank you for your thoughts 10FT. Did you watch the BBCs doc? Given how bad I thought that one was, am I likely to find this any better?

I don't see you refuting most of prisonplanet's points, such as the programs refusal to show first responders and family members on the opposite side. I will judge the camera tricks, or lack of, for myself.

By the way, maybe you, atleast, can make a comment on the unscientific assertion of the NIST scientist mentioned on the previous page?

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democritus
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Posted: Wed 07 Nov , 2007 10:06 am
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One of the nice things about the Truthers is that it is an issue that both Liberals and Conservatives can unite on. That's the only benefit that fringe nutters can deliver.

For example here is an article from a right-wing blog that references a History Channel documentary that I'd love to see and may order.

http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2 ... y-channel/

And for a Liberal example I reference the stirling work done by Bill Maher to mock and humiliate the nutters where and when he can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrUD-5hf1A

Often it takes a war or a disaster to unite both sides, but this coming together against a ludicrious and thoroughly discredited conspiracy is a less lethal and much more amusing cause for cross-aisle solidarity.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Wed 07 Nov , 2007 1:51 pm
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Quote:
And for a Liberal example I reference the stirling work done by Bill Maher to mock and humiliate the nutters where and when he can:
I do not approve of people shouting out soundbites at events and making a scene, there's no way to get any good points across and it just alienates people who might be more inclined to listen to calmly/clearly explained anomalies about 9/11.

Of course, the same can be said of people who think it's smart to come into debate threads and shout "nutters" knowing full well it will make certain people angry. Your style is no better than theirs.

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Jude
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Posted: Wed 07 Nov , 2007 2:05 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Of course, the same can be said of people who think it's smart to come into debate threads and shout "nutters" knowing full well it will make certain people angry. Your style is no better than theirs.
Does the same apply to people who say "What a stupid POV"? :Wooper:

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Wed 07 Nov , 2007 3:03 pm
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Quote:
Does the same apply to people who say "What a stupid POV"?
POV is better than person.. and it turned out to be a POV the person did not really hold anyway :P

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democritus
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Posted: Thu 08 Nov , 2007 12:20 am
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Quote:
And for a Liberal example I reference the stirling work done by Bill Maher to mock and humiliate the nutters where and when he can:
I do not approve of people shouting out soundbites at events and making a scene, there's no way to get any good points across and it just alienates people who might be more inclined to listen to calmly/clearly explained anomalies about 9/11.

Of course, the same can be said of people who think it's smart to come into debate threads and shout "nutters" knowing full well it will make certain people angry. Your style is no better than theirs.
You know what, sometimes the truth isn't polite, sometimes it can be summed up by a crude expression. Nutters is the best and most honest expression for people who cannot and will not face the truth even when put in their face and who take their delusions and shout them in the face of others.


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democritus
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Posted: Thu 08 Nov , 2007 12:20 am
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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 08 Nov , 2007 12:42 am
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Quote:
Nutters is the best and most honest expression for people who cannot and will not face the truth even when put in their face and who take their delusions and shout them in the face of others.
You don't know me at all. Which I am quite grateful for.

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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 08 Nov , 2007 9:19 am
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Iavas,

Talking of camera and TV tricks, could you let me know which ones Loose Change used, if any?

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democritus
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Posted: Thu 08 Nov , 2007 9:39 am
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Quote:
Nutters is the best and most honest expression for people who cannot and will not face the truth even when put in their face and who take their delusions and shout them in the face of others.
You don't know me at all. Which I am quite grateful for.
Oh I know enough to safely draw quite a number of conclusions. However that's not the point, my comments were not even about you specifically but about a much community of people generally, the kind of people who continue to believe thoroughly discredited and logically impossible conspiracy theories such as the "9/11 conspiracy" and the "Moon hoax" either through mind-numbing credulity or because it serves their own warped purposes and/or deeply held beliefs (about religion or governments or a need to feel that they have a special knowledge). Now you want to make it personal by making my comments about you, well that's fine, but that's not the purpose of my post and your state of mind is no longer of interst to me, we have already been there before.

To my mind the 9/11 and the moon hoax conspiracies are so unlikely and have been so thoroughly debunked that there is a greater chance that aliens really did land in Roswell and were detained my Military Intelligence than that either of these two conspiracies are true.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 08 Nov , 2007 11:25 pm
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Lidless wrote:
Iavas,

Talking of camera and TV tricks, could you let me know which ones Loose Change used, if any?
Probably lots. If that relates back to THC doc, I was rightly put in my place for commenting on something I had not seen.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 09 Nov , 2007 1:38 am
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Quote:
....logically impossible....

....so thoroughly debunked....
Here we see the problem of someone trying to pass off an OPINION (even if it's an informed one) as fact.

Maybe they just do not grasp the concept of complex science and competing theories? Do they understand that the physical systems being studied are SO complex, that PROVING a theory to be true, or untrue, cannot be done? Are they aware that the leading body investigating the science cannot even complete one of the studies? That their model failed with realistic input parameters? That they did not even model a crucial part of the event?

This is not to say these scientists are wrong, and *I* am not arrogant enough to claim that. I don't know. No one can KNOW in this case. I know enough science to know that a definite conclusion is not within reach in a system so complex. Probabilities are what we have. Sadly, non-scientists, or even scientists who can't accept where one of the competing theories would lead, seem to have no qualms turning probabilities into certainties and acting as if there is nothing to debate.

Science doesn't work that way, and having been part of the astronomical community modelling galaxies for over 4 years, I know that for highly complex systems where physical tests are not possible, proving one theory over another is exceedingly difficult. With these things, a concensus will develop over time, but it may not have been proven and may one day turn out to be wrong.

Using words like impossible may not necessarily be arrogance but it is certainly ignorance.


As for myself, I am a falible, still growing human and as such have at times let emotion get the better of me, have been one-sided, have failed to take a step back, and have been tempted by fantastic, appealing "conspiracies" (you know, when something new and exciting makes you get a bit reckless). I can freely admit to these failings along this journey. And through it I have listened to the opposing side and cast many things aside, or have been given enough doubt to where it doesn't really matter.

But even after analysing my own failings and lessening my personal investment there are still things about 9/11 that my logic and scientific knowledge question. And if someone thinks they KNOW all the answers, and that having doubts can never be due to actual skills like the ones I possess, then they are way too full of themselves for me.

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Posted: Thu 13 Dec , 2007 10:41 am
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Not sure what this proves either way but when I saw it I was reminded of the Twin Towers "Physics" argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG5qDeWHNmk

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 03 Mar , 2008 6:59 pm
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Anyone here going to picket Cotillard's next movie?

Victims Furious as Oscar Winner said 9/11 Faked, New Depp Movie Targeted

The title is misleading, it should actually read "One first responder Furious.."

While I don't put much stock in what she says due to her moon landing comments, she does raise one of the less talked about aspects of the conspiracy theory, which I think is one of the more troubling - that the WTC buildings were commercial liabilities and the new owners of just a few weeks gained substantially from them being destroyed over paying for asbestos removal etc.

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