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The 9/11 Thread - oscar winning

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What is your opinion of the official 9/11 story?
I believe the official story 100%. The government has been completely honest on every detail.
  
4% [ 3 ]
I believe the general framework of the official story, even if some of the details might be wrong.
  
55% [ 40 ]
The official story is most likely true, but I sometimes have doubts.
  
15% [ 11 ]
I don't know what to believe.
  
10% [ 7 ]
I believe the official story is most likely a cover-up of some sort.
  
8% [ 6 ]
I believe this was a conspiracy meant to further the governments aggressive foreign policy (i.e. a "New Pearl Harbour")
  
8% [ 6 ]
Total votes: 73
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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 14 Mar , 2007 8:51 pm
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All this 'sticking to your guns' comments. Is this thread going to turn into a Second Amendment one?

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democritus
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Posted: Thu 15 Mar , 2007 9:26 am
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Iavas_Saar wrote:
C_G - can you give some examples of CLEAR stupidity (i.e. couldn't possibly be anything else) on the part of an individual or group currently in power?
Iavas, I could give you any number of examples of CLEAR stupidity on the part of individual in power (and I'm not including Bush, because I don't really believe he HAS any power). How about Cheney scrawling "did his wife send him on a junket" on Wilson's op-ed piece, and then putting it under the glass on his desk? Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

That having been said, as you mentioned before, I do agree with you to a certain extent that people like Rove and Cheney are very canny in a sly, underhanded, completely unethical way. I don't particularly believe that they were behind the 9/11 attacks (as you know), but I don't put it past them. Frankly, I think that manipulating the "9/11 Truth Movement" for their own purposes is far more their speed. That is very much the type of thing that Rove would excel at. I don't think that he (and I consider him to the evil mastermind of the Bush administration) would have the wherewithal to organize and carry through a plot of the type that you suggest.

However, like cheerfulchaos I do also admire you for sticking to your guns, and for (mostly) refusing to answer the personal attacks that are often directed at you with personal attacks of your own.
Please.... Voronwe you disappoint me with your "wouldn't put it past them" comment, do you REALLY think that? I doubt that you do.

As for praising Iavas for sticking to his guns I don't think you are helping matters here. Most of the "attacks" on Iavas has come from his friends who are not attacking him so much as they are providing a form of tough love therapy for someone who has lost his way and who has indulged an unfounded obsession which has hurt his marriage. I think we are doing him more a service as friends than those who patronise him with faint praise.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 15 Mar , 2007 12:54 pm
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Quote:
I think we are doing him more a service as friends than those who patronise him with faint praise.
You are deluded. The more YOU patronise and ridicule me, the more I think there must be something credible to my position, because your reaction is an emotional one, not a rational one.

The best way to convince me my suspicions are wrong (still suspicions, not certainties), is to attack them with logic (which should be easy if the premise is worthy of the ridicule you give it).

When you have people like Michael Meacher, who was once #3 in the Labour government, not ruling out US government involvement in 9/11, you have to abandon your ridiculous stereotypes about "conspiracy theorists".

Here's some 'tough love' for you: your methods are weak and are achieving the opposite of what you say your intentions are, so it's time to rethink. I take what people like Voronwe say far more seriously, and they are much more likely to have an impact on my views.

If I have an unhealthy obsession and have lost my way in life, it makes me wonder if I could have done even better than becoming a manager in just under 2 years when it typically takes people 5 years at least. Maybe I'd have done it in under a year if I hadn't gone off the deep end?

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democritus
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Posted: Thu 15 Mar , 2007 1:35 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Quote:
I think we are doing him more a service as friends than those who patronise him with faint praise.
You are deluded. The more YOU patronise and ridicule me, the more I think there must be something credible to my position, because your reaction is an emotional one, not a rational one.

The best way to convince me my suspicions are wrong (still suspicions, not certainties), is to attack them with logic (which should be easy if the premise is worthy of the ridicule you give it).

When you have people like Michael Meacher, who was once #3 in the Labour government, not ruling out US government involvement in 9/11, you have to abandon your ridiculous stereotypes about "conspiracy theorists".

Here's some 'tough love' for you: your methods are weak and are achieving the opposite of what you say your intentions are, so it's time to rethink. I take what people like Voronwe say far more seriously, and they are much more likely to have an impact on my views.

If I have an unhealthy obsession and have lost my way in life, it makes me wonder if I could have done even better than becoming a manager in just under 2 years when it typically takes people 5 years at least. Maybe I'd have done it in under a year if I hadn't gone off the deep end?
Hey whatever dude, if you think my methods are weak that's fine, and I'm actually glad for you if its true about your promotion. You basically have never been able to address any of the most basic questions I have put to you (why did they do it, how did they manage to keep it a secret and what about those thousands of witnesses who contributed to the official enquiry/) and I do know that all of this has taken a toll on those around you. But hey, its not my job to air your dirty laundry online and I am satisfied that I have done my bit of shock treatment for you as a friend. So I will bow out of this thread completely with the two comments, firstly, that I hope when enough time passes you will come to release how much of a massive waste of time all of this is and move on in a positive way for you and your loved ones and secondly, I would recommend that you go and see the film Zodiac and understand how obsession (if never realised) can hollow out and hurt peoples lives.


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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 15 Mar , 2007 1:52 pm
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Amen.

Take care Iavas, and I do mean that very sincerley, and like Demo, I really have no idea what else to say.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 15 Mar , 2007 2:28 pm
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Quote:
You basically have never been able to address any of the most basic questions I have put to you (why did they do it, how did they manage to keep it a secret and what about those thousands of witnesses who contributed to the official enquiry/)
It really is amazing... you have to wonder who is the person who is not seeing things clearly. As cheerfulchaos noted, I have answered everything put to me, including everything you've asked.
Iavas_Saar wrote:
Quote:
But let me humour your nonsense for a moment and ask you (again) to answer the three things that no 9/11 conspiracy nut has ever been able to answer.

(1) What is the motive for the US government to murder 3000 of it's own citizens. If you are silly enough to site the Iraq war I might point out that the case for war was built on WMD's not 9/11.

(2) How on earth did an adminstration as incompetent as this manage to pull off the biggest conspiracy in human history without any of it being leaked or discovered, when the maxim that the bigger the conspiracy the harder it is to keep it secret still holds true? The likelihood that if it had been true it would have been discovered by now, five and a bit years after the event is overwhelming.

(3) How do they explain all of those completely unrelated everyday eyewitnesses who saw nothing but planes and explosions caused by planes with not even one testimony backing up the conspiracists? Are you really going to insinuate that they are all government stooges?
I seriously doubt you are asking me these questions "again", implying that you tried once before and I ignored it (dig it up, if you can). You may use the avoidance method, but I don't.

1. Does that mean you think the US government cares about your life? Most of the biggest decision makers, including lobbying big business, care only about their own success - the only reason they would avoid using murder when it would greatly help their agenda would be if the risk of being found out was too high. Maybe you think that 9/11 was only good for starting one war - erm no. It didn't just start a war, it changed the world. This is the post-9/11 world. This is now the clash of civilisations that we are being warned will last decades. There was no reason to blame 9/11 on Iraq (would have been a much tougher sell too), because the "war on terror", started by 9/11, is going to be the cornerstone of US foreign policy for the foreseeable future.

2. Better to appear incompetent than corrupt. No, you don't get elected if you're incompetent - the campaign would never get off the ground. When you see the genius of the Bush/Rove campaigns, you must forget the idea that there are bunch of stupid people running Washington. It's too easy to say "Oh well, atleast they tried to do the right thing." I remember that Voronwe backed me up here. There are too many brilliant minds working behind the scenes to use the argument "But Bush is too stupid". As for keeping it secret - yes that is the official stories best defense. Many big secrets have been kept in the past though. The world of black ops is one we can barely see in to. It is impossible to say it "couldn't" be done, even if the chances are small. Consider that potential whistleblowers may themselves face serious punishment for their involvement.

3. This is a classic straw man, a position you invented for me. Planes did hit the buildings and cause explosions. I do not think the eyewitnesses are in on it. And if honest eyewitnesses are intimidated, I strongly disagree with that. But I'm sure that won't disuade you from continueing to paint every skeptic with the same brush! All priests are paedophiles, right..

Any more questions?
That's right there on the previous page, me answering your questions.

And what do you mean "if it's true" about my promotion??? I'm in management training right now.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Thu 15 Mar , 2007 6:39 pm
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democritus wrote:
Please.... Voronwe you disappoint me with your "wouldn't put it past them" comment, do you REALLY think that? I doubt that you do.
Let's be clear about what we are saying. Do I believe that there is any chance that Rove/Cheney et al. actually were directly responsible for the 9/11 attacks? Absolutely not. Do I believe that they had sufficient knowledge of the attacks to stop them and purposefully failed to do so? Highly, highly unlikely. But do I believe that they had the capacity to do (from an ethical standpoint, not from the standpoint of whether they had the technical ability to do it) had they believed that they could, and believed that it served their political purposes? Absolutely, without a doubt. After all, these are the people that put many people's lives at risk, and absolutely obliterated the United States' ability to accurately judge the weapons program of the country in the region that truly represented a thread, Iran, simply to discredit a man who had the balls to tell the truth about the lies they were telling to justify the war that they had wanted for a long time, and which has to date has taken more American lives then those 9/11 attacks, not to mention severely injured tens of thousands more Americans, and killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

No, I wouldn't put it past them.

As for why they would do it, simply to provide justification for that war that they wanted so desperately for so long. Do I believe that they actually did so? No. But I also acknowledge that there are a lot questions that no one has provided satisfactory answers to.

As I said above, I do believe, however, that it is highly likely that "9/11 Truth Movement" is being manipulated by Rove and company, and that many of the most ridiculous things that come out of that movement are the result of that manipulation (as Jnyusa suggested much earlier in this thread).


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 15 Mar , 2007 9:57 pm
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One thing we may all be able to agree on is that the someone somewhere in the government has a hand in creating/spreading the conspiracy theories. NOT all of them, but some of the ridiculous ones, or some that appear credible but are based on dishonest reporting which can be used to tarnish the movement as a whole.

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 16 Mar , 2007 12:09 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Dindraug wrote:
Amen.

Take care Iavas, and I do mean that very sincerley, and like Demo, I really have no idea what else to say.
:yes:

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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 16 Mar , 2007 12:09 am
Same as it ever was
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
One thing we may all be able to agree on is that the someone somewhere in the government has a hand in creating/spreading the conspiracy theories. NOT all of them, but some of the ridiculous ones, or some that appear credible but are based on dishonest reporting which can be used to tarnish the movement as a whole.
Iavas -

I feel exactly as Voronwe so aptly posited it. Bush Jr. WANTED war with Iraq, and it is frightening in my mind how much was convoluted and twisted around and discredited and ignored to get what he wanted (and those that were in place behind him madly churning the gears to get it.)

I also have to laugh with almost disbelief at how all of the headlines today were about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed admitting to masterminding just about every Islamic terrorist event that has ever taken place since 1993. Yeah, sure, he did it all, and I suppose he is behind alien abductions and global warming and AIDS as well.

Thank GOODNESS that there are elections coming up soon in this country. The gross level of misconduct of the current adminstration, its continued insistence on covering things up and admitting no blame ever when there is plenty to be found and its continued pressure to put forth its "position" are becoming more and more laughable and seriously disgusting every day.

No, I do not think that the Bush Adminstration was in any way BEHIND 9/11, but they certainly leaped onto the golden opportunity that that tragic event provided for them as spin fodder for everything else that they now could go in and claim.. And they have cowtowed to that wonderous moment ever since as the justification for all that they do.

It makes me ill. Seriously. I only hope that history will recognize such things.


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 16 Mar , 2007 1:38 am
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Quote:
I also have to laugh with almost disbelief at how all of the headlines today were about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed admitting to masterminding just about every Islamic terrorist event that has ever taken place since 1993. Yeah, sure, he did it all, and I suppose he is behind alien abductions and global warming and AIDS as well.
Yeah, it's almost funny in a pitiful way.

It's also interesting how they always show the same photo of the guy, where he looks like a drunk hobo they pulled off the streets. He looks like a real genius.

Quote:
No, I do not think that the Bush Adminstration was in any way BEHIND 9/11, but they certainly leaped onto the golden opportunity that that tragic event provided for them as spin fodder for everything else that they now could go in and claim.. And they have cowtowed to that wonderous moment ever since as the justification for all that they do.
That's a perfectly valid point of view. You see them as corrupt opportunists. I don't think there is a huge gap though between opportunists, and those who help their opportunities to come along. It's especially suspicious in this case, where the opportunity

a) Was speculated about by the incoming policy makers a couple of years beforehand

b) Occured just a few months into the administrations 1st term

c) Became the justification for "all that they do"

It's a pretty big coincidence for opportunists to get the perfect opportunity at the perfect time. Coincidences happen, but I don't think it's a great leap to wonder if it was more than just luck - especially when there are so many suspicious and unexplained anomalies surrounding the event.

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 16 Mar , 2007 6:23 pm
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I think Tom Clancy was behind 9/11 so as to push book sales of Debt Of Honor.

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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Fri 16 Mar , 2007 9:50 pm
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cartoon.

I have to admit that I don't fully buy the Khalid Sheik Mohammed confession myself. He might be simply boasting, or there might be something more.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sat 17 Mar , 2007 1:46 am
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KSM "Confessed" To Attacking Bank Founded After His Arrest

The release of the KSM confession transcript would make a nice addition to Keith Olbermann's "Nexus of Politics and Terror", coming as it does after the new scandal in the DoJ.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Sun 18 Mar , 2007 4:21 pm
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Okay, so not quite a first choice celeb to question 9/11, but it all helps and she seems to know what she's talking about.. from Rosie O'Donnell's blog:

http://www.rosie.com/blog/2007/03/15/wtc-7/
Quote:
at 5 30 pm
9 11 2001
wtc7 collapsed

for the third time in history
fire brought down a steel building
reducing it to rubble

hold on folks
here we go

• The fires in WTC 7 were not evenly distributed, so a perfect collapse was impossible.
• Silverstein said to the fire department commander “the smartest thing to do is pull it.”
• Firefighters withdrawing from the area stated the building was going to “blow up”.
• The roof of WTC 7 visibly crumbled and the building collapsed perfectly into its footprint.
• Molten steel and partially evaporated steel members were found in the debris.

[WTC 7] contained offices of the FBI, Department of Defense, IRS (which contained prodigious amounts of corporate tax fraud, including Enron’s), US Secret Service, Securities & Exchange Commission (with more stock fraud records), and Citibank’s Salomon Smith Barney, the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management and many other financial institutions. [Online Journal]

The SEC has not quantified the number of active cases in which substantial files were destroyed [by the collapse of WTC 7]. Reuters news service and the Los Angeles Times published reports estimating them at 3,000 to 4,000. They include the agency’s major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom. …”Ongoing investigations at the New York SEC will be dramatically affected because so much of their work is paper-intensive,” said Max Berger of New York’s Bernstein Litowitz Berger & Grossmann. “This is a disaster for these cases.” [New York Lawyer]

Citigroup says some information that the committee is seeking [about WorldCom] was destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attack on the World Trade Center. Salomon had offices in 7 World Trade Center, one of the buildings that collapsed in the aftermath of the attack. The bank says that back-up tapes of corporate emails from September 1998 through December 2000 were stored at the building and destroyed in the attack. [TheStreet]

Inside [WTC 7 was] the US Secret Service’s largest field office with more than 200 employees. …”All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade, in all our cases, went down with the building,” according to US Secret Service Special Agent David Curran. [TechTV]

lets start here
ok…go slow
remember 2 breathe
use google

And from a Q&A on the subject:
Quote:
Noelle writes: the towers,Bush was not behind that, are you kidding me?He isnt a good enough actor to pull that off. Remember his reaction at the school when it was whispered to him.real emotion. i check it out, tho

rosie: real emotion?
r u kidding me
he didnt move a muscle
after hearing we were under attack
HE DID NOT MOVE
Spot on. The President not leaping up to get more news on his country being "under attack" is still one of the clearest signs that what was happening that morning had not come completely out of the blue. And it's not just Bush's inaction, but the inaction of everyone else - why on earth did Card not add "Sir, you need to come with me right now." Two plane crashes within 15 minutes, but it's perfectly okay to leave the Commande-in-Chief out of the game for another 15-30 minutes? Ridiculous.

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oldtoby
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Posted: Sun 18 Mar , 2007 8:07 pm
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Oh well, if Rosie says its a conspiracy it MUST be true :roll:






Big deal, call me when Oprah weighs in.


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Lidless
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Posted: Mon 19 Mar , 2007 12:32 am
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oldtoby wrote:
Big deal, call me when Oprah weighs in.
Depends on her weight at the time.

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oldtoby
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Posted: Mon 19 Mar , 2007 12:43 am
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:LMAO: Good point. which is more authoritative? Fat Oprah or thin Oprah?


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Mon 19 Mar , 2007 1:22 am
His Rosyness
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oldtoby wrote:
Oh well, if Rosie says its a conspiracy it MUST be true :roll:
Do you think I was trying to make that point?

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oldtoby
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Posted: Mon 19 Mar , 2007 1:39 am
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Honestly, I don't care what point you were trying to make. I just felt like making a snide comment.


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