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Iraq - puppy throwing video, real or fake?

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Iavas_Saar
Post subject: Iraq - puppy throwing video, real or fake?
Posted: Wed 17 Aug , 2005 10:59 pm
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<no longer relevant>

Last edited by Iavas_Saar on Tue 04 Mar , 2008 6:45 pm, edited 30 times in total.

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Lady_of_Rohan
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Posted: Wed 17 Aug , 2005 11:21 pm
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Never.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Wed 17 Aug , 2005 11:31 pm
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Well, enjoy your evening.

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Lady_of_Rohan
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Posted: Wed 17 Aug , 2005 11:35 pm
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Same to you, Iavas. :cheers:

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 3:00 am
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Well, I went along to my local vigil, but very foolishly went when it was still light and people were only starting to set up. So I didn't get to see the candles.

I can't believe I've done a complete 180 on this.. I fully supported the war when it started.

I'd be interested to know why LoR was so dead against it, but perhaps the thread should be moved to the Symposium for that?

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 3:08 am
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That would probably be wise. :D


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Anthriel
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 3:09 am
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Please.


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Rowanberry
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 5:20 am
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Moved by request.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 8:53 am
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I have almost no opinion on Sheeham at this moment.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 11:24 am
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I think it's horrible she lost her son, bt many have lost their sons or husbands or wives. They can't all see the president. He can't visit them all personally.

I'm not sure what she expects to get out of it, other than a lot of publicity. I would imagine her son would want more respect for what he was doing. Grief is a hard thing, but I don't think all of this attention and being a 'rallying' point will help her with hers in the end.

I just don't understand her motivations.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 12:16 pm
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Quote:
He can't visit them all personally.
He's not being asked to visit them all personally. He's being asked to visit one, and he can't even take an hour out of his vacation to do so (but he does have time to read several books while there).
Quote:
I just don't understand her motivations.
To end the illegal and pointless war in Iraq and spare more families the grief she has suffered. If her son had died for a noble cause she would not be doing it. But he died for a lie, and even the reasons that replaced that lie - bringing peace and democracy to Iraq, are not being achieved.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 1:19 pm
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Iavas_Saar wrote:
Quote:
He can't visit them all personally.
He's not being asked to visit them all personally. He's being asked to visit one, and he can't even take an hour out of his vacation to do so (but he does have time to read several books while there).
And you don't think him seeing this one would cause problems when every other grieving parent wants to see him face to face? Because if he does it once, he'll be asked why he doesn't do it every time. She needs help she needs counciling, she can't let go, it's not the president of the United States' job to handle any of that.
Quote:
Quote:
I just don't understand her motivations.
To end the illegal and pointless war in Iraq and spare more families the grief she has suffered. If her son had died for a noble cause she would not be doing it. But he died for a lie, and even the reasons that replaced that lie - bringing peace and democracy to Iraq, are not being achieved.
She's not goign to end the war. The war will be over when every terrorist in the world is gone. That will never happen. The war in Iraq is and has been over for a long time. What's happening now is the people of Iraq are trying to set up a government and fend for themselves. Our men are there helping them as they are being attacked by TERRORISTS. If we leave before they're ready, chaos and anarchy will be the result. We're there to help them. How is that not a noble cause?

Sheeham is being told by so many people how great she is, and how wrong it was for her son to die, and how evil Bush is for sending her son to die. All of that may be true but it doesn't help her. It just prolongs her grief and lack of closure.

What she should be told is that her son was a hero who died for his country and knew what he was getting into. You enter into the military, there's a chance you'll see combat and die. That's the bottom line.

Do I wish she could sit down with the President and get the closure she wants... sure, but what do you think he'll say to her that he hasn't already said to the people who have lost loved ones. He's not going to suddenly open up and say, "You're right, it was stupid, I'm sorry." And frankly, that's not true.

What I hate the most is people USING her to advance their own voices. Oh, here's one person who lost someone that is going to camp out in front of Bush's house... Lets try to make the President look bad for not inviting her in for a cup of tea...

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Lady_of_Rohan
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 1:25 pm
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I don't approve of a mother pimping out her dead son's memory for publicity.

The president has met with her before. She didn't get what she wanted to hear then, so she's disturbing the peace in Crawford until she gets her way now.

Her son volunteered to join our armed forces, knowing very well that he may be called upon to go to war and that he risked death. It is not as though he was forced to join (aka drafted). It was his decision to face the dangers of war.

Am I saying I don't feel sympathy for her and her loss? No! I don't agree with her motives or methods.



As for the president's reading list on his working vacation, how dare he read a book about the great 1918 flu outbreak while the Asian bird flu is gaining strength, or some Russian history while Russia is preparing for war games with China, or the salt book because it looks interesting. :roll:

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 1:32 pm
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In the last week I have heard the opinion from several people as follows
--- they have tremendous sympathy for Cindy Sheehan
-- they are also against the war as it now stands
-- they think she is grandstanding and going beyond what is normal
-- other more extreme people have taken over and now the whole thing is becoming a circus just like the Terry Shiavo death watch
-- Bush has no obligation to meet with her and the more political this thing gets, the less chance that the meeting will ever happen
-- and they want Bush out of office and several are even sorry for voting for him

So perhaps its the singer... not the song when it comes to Cindy Sheehan.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 1:41 pm
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Ah, so he already actually did meet with her? Well that changes everything. She really is simply out for publicity. She doesn't care about her son's death at all, she just placed the blame on Bush and is now doing everything she can to try and bring him down.

She's free to do that, but I won't support her, and I think she's horrible to use her son's death like that.

I'm still glad I voted for Bush. I can't imagine where the world would be with John Kerry running things. I'm still glad we took down Hussein. Iraq will be a better place in the end than it was in the beginning. I'm glad our forces are still there, because if they weren't, we might end up with another state like Afghanistan run by the Taliban.

Is it a good situation? No, because we're open to attack from terrorists. Would it be better if we pulled out and left the Iraqis fend for themselves? Depends on if you value American lives more than Iraqi lives I guess.

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 2:14 pm
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halpm said
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Iraq will be a better place in the end than it was in the beginning. I'm glad our forces are still there, because if they weren't, we might end up with another state like Afghanistan run by the Taliban.
You could be correct -- only time will tell. However, I do believe another strong possibility is the Yugoslavia model. After the death of a strong autocrat - Tito -- the nation devolved into ethnic warfare and eventually broke up in several smaller and weaker divisions based on ethnicity. Iraq could well end up like that. Saddam could well have been the glue that held the whole thing together for better or worse.
But we will see.

And I really do not see how a Democratic victory over Bush could have been worse than this. Record high deficits in just a short time after surpluses, a war with no end in sight or victory in sight, a crumbling infrasturcture, the list just gets worse.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Thu 18 Aug , 2005 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vison
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 2:15 pm
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halpm: "She's not goign to end the war. The war will be over when every terrorist in the world is gone. That will never happen. The war in Iraq is and has been over for a long time. What's happening now is the people of Iraq are trying to set up a government and fend for themselves. Our men are there helping them as they are being attacked by TERRORISTS. If we leave before they're ready, chaos and anarchy will be the result. We're there to help them. How is that not a noble cause? "

Still living in the alternate universe I see!

As for this woman, if everyone who thinks she's a grandstanding twit just ignored her, she'd eventually go away. She will anyway, the great American star-making machinery will soon put someone else in her place.

It IS very like the Schiavo fiasco, isn't it?


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10FTTALL
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 2:27 pm
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01753.html

Bush did indeed meet with her family already. Some members of her extended family aren't too happy with her either:
Quote:
Her son's aunt and godmother released a statement, accusing Sheehan of promoting her agenda at the expense of her son's name.

"We don't agree with anything she's doing," said Frank Sheehan, Casey's grandfather. "As far as we're concerned, Casey was a hero and she's dragging him through the mud."
Here's another interesting quote from a June 24 news story about when they did meet Bush:
Quote:
While meeting with Bush, as well as Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, was an honor, it was almost a tangent benefit of the trip. The Sheehans said they enjoyed meeting the other families of fallen soldiers, sharing stories, contact information, grief and support.

For some, grief was still visceral and raw, while for others it had melted into the background of their lives, the pain as common as breathing. Cindy said she saw her reflection in the troubled eyes of each.

"It's hard to lose a son," she said. "But we (all) lost a son in the Iraqi war."

The trip had one benefit that none of the Sheehans expected.

For a moment, life returned to the way it was before Casey died. They laughed, joked and bickered playfully as they briefly toured Seattle.

For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again.

"That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together," Cindy said.
http://www.thereporter.com/republished

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 2:30 pm
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vison wrote:
halpm: "She's not goign to end the war. The war will be over when every terrorist in the world is gone. That will never happen. The war in Iraq is and has been over for a long time. What's happening now is the people of Iraq are trying to set up a government and fend for themselves. Our men are there helping them as they are being attacked by TERRORISTS. If we leave before they're ready, chaos and anarchy will be the result. We're there to help them. How is that not a noble cause? "

Still living in the alternate universe I see!
What alternate universe? Are you saying the suicide bombers attacking our troops and iraqi citizens aren't terrorists? They aren't using terrorist tactics? They aren't using tactics designed specifically to get the American people to tire of the effort of our military?

Why do you think these people are attacking our troops? Because they think we're invading? Sorry, no, they are attacking our troops becuase they are a convenient target. They can't get at us at home, so they'll get at us over there. It's easy to say "well then lets just pull out..." But do you think they will stop if we leave?

THAT is a fantasy. They will just shift gears trying to take power where a weak government is susceptable to propaganda and terror.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 18 Aug , 2005 2:37 pm
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I will be honest. I think figuring out that her son died for NOTHING unhinged Cindy slightly. And I think this liberated her. She doesn't care what other people think. She doesn't care about bloggers bloviating about her. She doesn't care if others are along for the ride, except as it might help her in her one goal: forcing the man she blames for her son's death to look her in the eye. It isn't reasonable. But what about war is?

If you don't understand, that just means you aren't a casuality of war like she is.

Yet.

BTW: In ten years there will be no Iraq. There might be a failed state a la Somalia with that name, or a few countries occupying the same space, or an enlarged Iran, but there will be no Iraq. And things in the Middle East will be no better. If we were smart, and not run by people who live on exploitation and war, we would be out of there before it comes to that, figuring out how to get off the oil addiction.


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