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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep , 2011 1:32 pm 
The ONLY reason anyone can be held without charges for more than 48 hours is if the DEFENDANT waived their right to a speedy trial.

As far as being on paid leave that is a union/contract issue (civil) not criminal issue.

I won't second guess why the others weren't charged since I don't know the ins and outs of the investigation. Neither should anyone who wasn't directly involved with the investigation until you read the final report.

As far as there not being an IA investigation that makes no sense to me. If the council is as "protect their own and themselves" as you say they are then how are they going to defend themselves in court when the federal lawsuit is filed. If there truly wasn't one as you claim then the citizens of THAT city need to take to every council meeting. I can tell you that any in custody death at my department would result in an IA investigation.

freddy


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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Mon 26 Sep , 2011 4:38 pm 
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Yeah, but they can be held with charges while waiting a trail. They're entitled to a bail hearing, of course, but if they cannot afford the bail how then what? How long can they be held between charges and trial? People do sit in custody during an investigation awaiting trial.

The citizens of that city did fill up the council meeting between the beating and now. And they all used their public comment time to talk about the abuses of the police department. When it was over, the mayor apologized to a guest speaker about the unruly disturbance that had just occurred during the meeting.

So, given that a person can sit in jail (which is not prison) for more than 48 hours, it is pretty obvious what is going on. Gang-bangers would be in jail had they committed a similar offense. The officers involved in this were on duty and on patrol during the DA's investigation. The guy who drives a get-away car is just as complicit in the crime to the point where the driver can be charged with murder. Four officers are not facing any charges, one is facing 2nd degree murder, one is facing involuntary manslaughter. Yes, it's pretty obvious what is going on in Fullerton.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2011 6:51 pm 
Aspiring to heresy
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I just read something disturbing, and I wonder if anyone can clarify:

license to kill in America

The headline is overly-dramatic, but what concerns me is the "Officer's Friend Card". I've never read about it anywhere else. Please tell me it's a myth?

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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep , 2011 7:29 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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The majority of that article is so full of bias and crap, I won't give it the time of day. ;)

However, the Officer's Friend Card? Ummm, no. The closest thing I can think of is if you donate money to the FOP (Fraternal Order of Police) you can get a sticker or a card that says you support the FOP. You can put the sticker on your bumper or carry the card in your wallet, but your chances of getting out of anything, even something minor like a moving violation, are pretty slim. It would certainly not give you a reprieve from any major crime. People may think that if they support the FOP and receive their sticker/card that it's the equivalent of a "get out of jail free" card, but it's not.

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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep , 2011 1:03 am 
bioalchemist
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Um, Jude, I think your bullshit detector needs a tune-up...

That said, my sister once got out of a speeding ticket once because, right after getting pulled over, the principal and one of the vice principals of our HS jogged up (they just happened to be running on that same road) and started telling the officer what an awesome student and person she was.

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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Fri 27 Jan , 2012 5:29 pm 
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Feredir, I don't bring up every article with a police shooting.

Take a look at a recent shooting in Long Beach. The guy was armed with a hose nozzle. Was it tragic? Yes. Could it have been been better? Yes. But was it done wrong? No.

Then there was the case of the 8th grader with a realistic looking pellet gun. Also tragic, also could have been better, but also not done wrong.

The Kelly Thomas beating was done wrong. It was done so spectacularly wrong that it is a textbook perfect example of how our current system protects police from charges of misbehavior.

The first thing that happened when people looked at that case and said "something is wrong here" is that the police, the police union, the city leadership, and the prosecutor's office all closed ranks and said "you the public keep out we're handling this and we're not going to tell you what's going on so butt out."

The very first thing that was done wrong was that no arrests were made - and as a police officer you know that an arrest all by itself doesn't mean that anyone is guilty of anything yet. No trial yet, not conviction yet, no sentencing yet. A gangbanger would have been arrested, a police officer wasn't. The next thing that was done wrong was the intense privacy of who was involved. An innocent guy who is arrested on a gangbang beatdown resulting in a death would have his name and photo splashed on page one, and then two weeks later have a story on page 20 saying that the police picked up the wrong guy. The third thing is that one of the officers confessed and nobody did anything, the thin blue wall. He bragged in the locker room and nobody did anything.

Now I know that police who arrest crooked cops generally jeopardize their careers. The get denied promotions, get worse assignments, etc. But the oath they took on becoming a cop means that they should do so. Which means that again this highlights a failure of the system. Why are police punished for policing the police? Why are police punished for arresting crooked cops or criminal cops? IF someone had said "that bragging is a confession you are under arrest" that person would have been looked down on by his peers, and that is a failure of the system.

Can you address that particular failure? The punishment of honest police who arrest criminals in uniform?

I didn't address the 8th grader with the pellet gun or the Long Beach shooting because those weren't instances of police doing something wrong. They were instances of how sometimes their job puts them in a situation where they have to make tough choices with insufficient facts, which sucks for them but doesn't mean they are bad for making the tough choice. Those two cases, though, are very different from the Fullerton beating.

_________________
It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Fri 27 Jan , 2012 10:40 pm 
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Feredir, I don't bring up every article with a police shooting.

Take a look at a recent shooting in Long Beach. The guy was armed with a hose nozzle. Was it tragic? Yes. Could it have been been better? Yes. But was it done wrong? No.

Then there was the case of the 8th grader with a realistic looking pellet gun. Also tragic, also could have been better, but also not done wrong.

The Kelly Thomas beating was done wrong. It was done so spectacularly wrong that it is a textbook perfect example of how our current system protects police from charges of misbehavior.

The first thing that happened when people looked at that case and said "something is wrong here" is that the police, the police union, the city leadership, and the prosecutor's office all closed ranks and said "you the public keep out we're handling this and we're not going to tell you what's going on so butt out."

The very first thing that was done wrong was that no arrests were made - and as a police officer you know that an arrest all by itself doesn't mean that anyone is guilty of anything yet. No trial yet, not conviction yet, no sentencing yet. A gangbanger would have been arrested, a police officer wasn't. The next thing that was done wrong was the intense privacy of who was involved. An innocent guy who is arrested on a gangbang beatdown resulting in a death would have his name and photo splashed on page one, and then two weeks later have a story on page 20 saying that the police picked up the wrong guy. The third thing is that one of the officers confessed and nobody did anything, the thin blue wall. He bragged in the locker room and nobody did anything.

Now I know that police who arrest crooked cops generally jeopardize their careers. The get denied promotions, get worse assignments, etc. But the oath they took on becoming a cop means that they should do so. Which means that again this highlights a failure of the system. Why are police punished for policing the police? Why are police punished for arresting crooked cops or criminal cops? IF someone had said "that bragging is a confession you are under arrest" that person would have been looked down on by his peers, and that is a failure of the system.

Can you address that particular failure? The punishment of honest police who arrest criminals in uniform?

I didn't address the 8th grader with the pellet gun or the Long Beach shooting because those weren't instances of police doing something wrong. They were instances of how sometimes their job puts them in a situation where they have to make tough choices with insufficient facts, which sucks for them but doesn't mean they are bad for making the tough choice. Those two cases, though, are very different from the Fullerton beating.



Can I address these? Sure can. Am I going to? Nope. It's not worth my time or the effort to engage in another conversation trying to convince you of anything. You're set in your ways and thought process and are entitled to be so. I've got a family to love and care for which is far more important. I hope any further contact you have with LEOs is positive and everything you hope it would be.

freddy


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 Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan , 2013 9:50 pm 
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Supreme Court to consider if silence can be evidence of guilt

Quote:
The Supreme Court on Friday agreed to consider whether a suspect's refusal to answer police questions prior to being arrested and read his rights can be introduced as evidence of guilt at his subsequent murder trial.

Without comment, the court agreed to hear the appeal of Genovevo Salinas, who was convicted of murder and sentenced to 20 years in prison for the December 1992 deaths of two brothers in Houston.

Salinas voluntarily answered police questions for about an hour, but he became silent when asked whether shotgun shells found at the crime scene would match a gun found at his home. An officer testified that Salinas demonstrated signs of deception.

Ballistics testing later matched the gun to the casings left at the murder scene.

Salinas was charged in 1993 but evaded arrest until his capture in 2007.

His first trial ended in a mistrial. At his second trial, Texas was able to introduce evidence of his silence in the police station, over his lawyer's objections.

Salinas' lawyer argued that his client deserved a Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination, even though he had not been under arrest or read his rights under the landmark 1966 decision Miranda v. Arizona.


So now the Supreme Court will decide if the 5th Amendment was a typo. Nice.

_________________
It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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