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Terror/Police States

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Feredir
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 03 Apr , 2009 12:44 pm
 
 
:rofl:


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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 03 Apr , 2009 1:47 pm
Just keep singin'!
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laureanna wrote:
Actually, the original intent of the thread was for Iavas to compare Dick Cheney to Star Wars.
It was? Really?

Was Dick Cheney playing Luke Skywalker or Princess Leia? I know he couldn't possibly be Han Solo...but perhaps Chewbacca?


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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 03 Apr , 2009 1:53 pm
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So that made the lawyer he shot an Imperial stormtrooper.

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 03 Apr , 2009 3:21 pm
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Oh dearie me... :damnfunny:

ETA: go back and read the first pages of this thread. Go on. I dare you to.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 03 Apr , 2009 3:59 pm
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Nope.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Tue 07 Apr , 2009 1:46 am
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TSA's version of events for an incident at St. Louis International Airport.

I don't need to post the anti-TSA side from an anti-TSA source. The TSA and the commentators do a good job at posting the anti-TSA side from a pro-TSA source.

The problem is that TSOs (who are not police officers by the way) are rather poorly trained, and after the last incident with a large amount of cash stopped by a TSO who insisted it was illegal to carry too much money the TSA allegedly sent out information saying that it isn't illegal to do so.

The TSA has the absolute worst track record for disciplining rogue TSOs. The TSO who forced a woman to remove piercings with a pair of pliers received a commendation. The TSA inspector who stepped on delicate instrumentation managed to fine the airline for his wrongdoing. All questions are answered with "That's SSI" or "Go to our website."

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Sun 19 Apr , 2009 3:40 pm
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I'm told I'm paranoid because I thought that someday a legislator in this country would suggest this.

Bill Would Require You to Identify Yourself At All Times - any 'peace officer' can demand i.d. any time, doesn't say exactly who qualifies as a 'peace officer.'
Quote:
Papers please!!

The Texas Senate has approved a bizarre measure which would require citizens to show some sort of identification to any police officer who demands it, at any time, for any reason, 1200 WOAI news reports.

Currently, it is illegal for a person to give a false name to police, but there is no law rewiring a person to provide i.d. at an officer's whim. And State Sen. Tommy Williams (R-The Woodlands) doesn't like the sound of this bill.

"We still live in a free society," he said. "I don't want police officers to be able to pull you over and ask that you identify yourself."

The bill would also require individuals to provide their date of birth and 'residence address' to police.

Supporters of the bill, like State Sen. Juan Hinojosa (D-McAllen) says there are safeguards.

"A police officer would not have the discretion just to come over and ask for i.d. on just anybody," he said.

Hinojosa said the officer would have to have a 'good reason' to demand identification.

The bill is sponsored by State Sen. Dan Patrick (R-Houston), who is a strong supporter of individual rights.

"It is illegal for them to falsely identify themselves, but it is not illegal for them not to tell you who they are," Patrick said. "In this era of national security issues, if we have a police officer detaining someone at a high profile target, it is in the best interests of the safety of that officer and this community to be able to quickly determine who that person is."

Other lawmakers say if a person is bent on committing a crime, the individual is not likely to be deterred by the possibility of a misdemeanor charge of failure to identify.

Patrick’s' bill does not specify exactly who a 'peace officer' who is authorized to demand papers is. It doesn't say whether it would be limited to TCLOSE certified police officers, or would apply to constables, security guards, or neighborhood watch members. It also doesn't specify what passes for 'i.d' and wither it would have to be a photo i.d.

The bill also does not spell out any safeguards or recource for citizens who are asked at random to identify themselves to police.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Sun 19 Apr , 2009 3:53 pm
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this from the article from CG
Quote:
Currently, it is illegal for a person to give a false name to police, but there is no law rewiring a person to provide i.d. at an officer's whim.
If we are now passing laws that dictate the rewiring of people, they that has gone way too far.

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laureanna
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Sun 19 Apr , 2009 3:54 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:

The bill also does not spell out any safeguards or recource for citizens who are asked at random to identify themselves to police.
[/quote]

Not to mention the non-citizens. It does sound rather intimidating. Will there be safeguards against racial profiling? Is this a form of search and seizure? I'm assuming this will be in the courts soon.

Please note that I am not implying that all police would use this for intimidation, or even most police. I'm just concerned about the few that already have that bent, and would now have another tool to use.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Sun 19 Apr , 2009 3:57 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
this from the article from CG
Quote:
Currently, it is illegal for a person to give a false name to police, but there is no law rewiring a person to provide i.d. at an officer's whim.
If we are now passing laws that dictate the rewiring of people, they that has gone way too far.
Yes, there are typographic errors in the original article. I guess that means there's no value in the article at all. No value in discussing the bill that has been proposed. No value in debating the merits of that bill. All because there are typos in the article. No explaining to us why you think this bill is a good thing and why I'm wrong to think it is bad.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Sun 19 Apr , 2009 3:58 pm
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OH! So people are not being "rewired". Whew ... thats a huge relief. ;)

A sense of humor can be a very good thing.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Sun 19 Apr , 2009 4:08 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
OH! So people are not being "rewired". Whew ... thats a huge relief.
I'll now post a typographically correct version for your benefit. That way there's a ghost of a possibility of a chance that you might address topic.
Typographically correct article wrote:
Papers please!!

The Texas Senate has approved a bizarre measure which would require citizens to show some sort of identification to any police officer who demands it, at any time, for any reason, 1200 WOAI news reports.

Currently, it is illegal for a person to give a false name to police, but there is no law requiring a person to provide i.d. at an officer's whim. And State Sen. Tommy Williams (R-The Woodlands) doesn't like the sound of this bill.

"We still live in a free society," he said. "I don't want police officers to be able to pull you over and ask that you identify yourself."

The bill would also require individuals to provide their date of birth and 'residence address' to police.

Supporters of the bill, like State Sen. Juan Hinojosa (D-McAllen) says there are safeguards.

"A police officer would not have the discretion just to come over and ask for i.d. on just anybody," he said.

Hinojosa said the officer would have to have a 'good reason' to demand identification.

The bill is sponsored by State Sen. Dan Patrick (R-Houston), who is a strong supporter of individual rights.

"It is illegal for them to falsely identify themselves, but it is not illegal for them not to tell you who they are," Patrick said. "In this era of national security issues, if we have a police officer detaining someone at a high profile target, it is in the best interests of the safety of that officer and this community to be able to quickly determine who that person is."

Other lawmakers say if a person is bent on committing a crime, the individual is not likely to be deterred by the possibility of a misdemeanor charge of failure to identify.

Patrick’s' bill does not specify exactly who a 'peace officer' who is authorized to demand papers is. It doesn't say whether it would be limited to certified police officers, or would apply to constables, security guards, or neighborhood watch members. It also doesn't specify what passes for 'i.d' and whether it would have to be a photo i.d.

The bill also does not spell out any safeguards or recource for citizens who are asked at random to identify themselves to police.
sauronsfinger wrote:
A sense of humor can be a very good thing.
When are you planning on installing one?

_________________

It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Sun 19 Apr , 2009 4:16 pm
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posted on Friday in the texas secession thread by Vison to CG

[quote]L i g h t e n u p .[/quote]

Why do you take this so deadly seriously? Come on, its a lazy Sunday and its not like the world is coming to an end. Somebody writing about the danger of the big bad government forcing people to be "rewired" is funny.

I have already forwarded the information to DailyKos and Buzz Flash and hope they get a kick out of it also.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 1:38 am
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Expanded police powers under consideration
Quote:
AUSTIN, Texas — Sobriety checkpoints. Expanded arrest powers. License plate readers on the highways.

Civil libertarians say personal freedom is under attack in the Texas capital.

The latest move came Wednesday in the Senate, which passed a bill giving the police much broader authority to arrest people. The legislation, approved on a 22-8 vote, would create the new crime of "failure to identify" after being detained.

It comes on the heels of legislation, already passed by the Senate, that would establish police roadblocks to crack down on intoxicated motorists, allow automated police cameras to take pictures of license plates on the highways and permit mandatory blood draws for certain people suspected of drunken driving.

Sponsors of the controversial bills coming out of the Senate say there are enough protections, such as the requirement that sobriety checkpoints be announced in advance, to ensure law-abiding citizens aren't hassled.

But taken together, the proposals represent a significant assault on civil liberties, critics say.

"Our concern is we could be taking a big step backward in terms of the rights of Texans to be left alone," said Rebecca Bernhardt, policy director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas. "The question for Texans is: 'should folks who are following the law be interfered with'?"

The bill expanding arrest powers drew brief but sometimes heated debate in the Senate.

Current law makes it a crime when detained people intentionally mislead police about their identity. It's also a crime to refuse to provide one's identity after being arrested. But it's still legal in Texas for people to refuse to identify themselves as long as they haven't been arrested.

That would change under the bill approved by senators Wednesday. It would make it a crime to refuse self-identification if a person has simply been detained by police. Sen. Dan Patrick, R-Houston, author of the measure, said police need the expanded authority.

"In this time of homeland security issues, if we have a police officer detaining someone ... it is in the best interest of the safety of that officer and our community to find out who that person is," Patrick said.

Sen. Tommy Williams, R-The Woodlands, initially opposed the bill, saying he had a problem with this "show me your papers thing."

"We still live in a free society. I don't want police officers to be able to pull you over and ask you to identify yourself just because that's what they want," Williams said. But Williams ended up voting for the bill after it was amended to say that the police officer had to be acting on a "reasonable" basis when making the arrest.

The amendment did not offer enough protection for opponents, who said the measure could lead to racial profiling or unjustified police harassment.

"We get into some real civil liberty concerns when we're allowing that broad power under detainment only," said Sen. Wendy Davis, D-Fort Worth. "I think we're opening ourselves up to some unforeseen consequences."

Late last month, the Senate riled some civil libertarians when it passed two bills aimed at cracking down on drunken driving. They would allow police to set up sobriety checkpoints in large counties and cities and give law enforcement more latitude in forcing motorists to submit to mandatory breath or blood tests.

Then last week, the Senate unanimously approved a measure allowing the state police or federal law enforcement authorities to set up and operate "automatic license plate identification cameras" on public highways. The bill is supposed to be used for crime prevention but critics say the data and images gathered could be misused.

The bills would still have to be passed by the House and approved by the governor before becoming law.

Some critics also say the proposal to ban smoking in public places statewide is an assault on personal freedom, but that legislation hasn't reached the Senate floor yet.

___

The failure-to-identify bill is SB1175

The sobriety checkpoint bill is SB298

The license plate camera bill is SB1426

The smoking ban bill is SB544
This isn't just a proposal that is to be buried in committee - it has actually passed the Texas senate.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 3:34 am
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I have to wonder how far off it will be before the state of Texas demands it's citizens wear a big Texas star on their arm bands to identify them.

Show me your idenification papers
Show me your work papers
And not after they are arrested?

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 2:49 pm
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Fortunately for people outside of Texas, while Texas is becoming a state of "papers please", a Montana legislator has introduced a bill that will actually NULLIFY the REAL ID act within Montana.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Jude
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 3:01 pm
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I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the G20 Summit.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 3:02 pm
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You just did. :D

Actually we could use Iavas for that topic. I PMed him asking him to return, but since he isn't returning he isn't reading his PMs. Ne needs to return so he can read my PM asking him to return.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 4:14 pm
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I'm actually really enjoying Iavas not being involved with threads like this and really, really, really don't want him returning to them.

He's spending most of his free time outdoors working in our garden and not paying attention to all the conspiracy theory stuff which has been very nice. So you won't get any info about the G20 summit from him as he hasn't been paying attention to it.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: Re: Terror/Police States
Posted: Fri 24 Apr , 2009 4:23 pm
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Eru, I'm pleased to hear that. :)

Edit: If you don't mind, tell him I said hello.


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