board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Scientific Rant

Post Reply   Page 1 of 1  [ 6 posts ]
Author Message
Guruthostirn
Post subject: Scientific Rant
Posted: Wed 22 Dec , 2004 7:14 pm
That Weird American
Offline
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 7:30 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
 
This thought just struck me while thinking about how scientists always say that concepts can only be expressed in the language of the field. To me, I see this as a significant problem with science. It is the languages that science uses that limit it.

To start off, let me mention some thoughts I've been having about languages. A universal philosophical principle is that any proposition can be expressed in any other language which comes from the same source, in this case, the human brain. Any proposition spoken in one human language can be expressed in any other, though not necessarily in an identical manner. I didn't like this idea very much since I know there are things that are said in certain languages which don't translate very well. I finally came to the realization that this comes not from the basic thoughts, the propositions, but how a language manipulates them. Also, and more importantly, was the realization that languages often do not contain the same propositions for the same uses. For example, the translation of the welsh term for the english statement "being fearful" is "to have fear upon you". They're different propositions which are similar enough that in different languages they describe the same state. Both of these points are important in what follows.

A very common aspect of scientific thought is that scientific, particularly mathematical, concepts cannot be expressed except in mathematics or the language of the field. The thought that I had was this: the language used to describe a phenomenon limits the understanding of that phenomenon. There's a common expression in America, that people should "think outside the box". Frequently this is applied to science, to come up with alternative explanations and theories. However, it is the language that is the most important box. While scientists stay within the framework of a particular language, they may be able to understand a phenomenon in a direct sense, but they are limited to only the view offered by that language. It is true that the language they use may be able to express other propositions which are not obvious, but combined with the scientific drive towards simplicity (which, unless carefully done, can lead to fallacies of reasoning, a whole different discussion), creates an environment in which these alternate propositions cannot be expressed.

What is needed is other languages to describe a phenomenon. English Can express fear as "there is fear on me" but it is clumsy. However, Welsh has no problem with that particular setup. And it lends to different explanations which have an equal strength of explanatory power. But what happens is that the explanations, because they are different, have different aspects which do not show up in the English version. In scientific terms this means that the understanding will be different. Simple guidelines must be maintained: the level of explanatory power must be maintained. However, there is no reason to think that a different form of communication cannot be discovered, and cannot offer explanations which yield unthought of concepts.


First philosophicalish thread! Beat up at will...

_________________

That crazy American Jerk...

"No stop signs, speed limits, no body's gonna slow me down..."

"You can run, but you'll die tired." -- What the archer said to the knight.


Top
Profile Quote
Griffon64
Post subject:
Posted: Thu 23 Dec , 2004 4:00 am
Garrulous Griffon
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2147
Joined: Fri 05 Nov , 2004 12:21 pm
Location: Moving away from the madding crowd
 
Well, sounds interesting! ;)

However, I find it very useful to think of concepts in the language best adapted to expressing them. I can write formal statements for my code very quickly in the language adapted to it. Writing : [ n A(upside down A) x | x* n < 0 ] comes to me a lot more naturally than "there exists a value of n so that, for all values of x, x times n is smaller than 0. :) Likewise I often talk with my collegues in terms of programming constructs when we discuss ways of solving a problem. Those are the tools available to us, proven to work well.

I do realize that staying within the domain language limits you. After all, new programming paradigms will rock along and they will be thought up by people who thought "outside the box".

So I'm sort of saying both ways of thinking has its place in the world, I guess ;) I'm not at my most articulate at 06:00am :mrgreen:

_________________

moment's hurt may harm or scar
but not inert nor beaten are
those who look and see afar
the healing hand of morning's star.


Top
Profile Quote
Mummpizz
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 28 Dec , 2004 2:25 pm
Gloriosus
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Wed 08 Dec , 2004 11:10 am
Location: history (repeats itself)
Contact: Website
 
I have difficulties with languages of reason like code, as language is not only the domain of reason but of poetry, too, and poetry lives only by manipulating language (code can be used manipulating, but not be manipulated itself).

As long as a language is shared by both "mathematical reason" and "poetry" it'll get bumps and bruises like a shared car.

Those attempts at "straightening" a language by defining terms as in business, laws and philosophy, have failed more or less, if not by general acceptance but by old age - Immanuel Kant was pretty clear about what he said and thought he had explained himself clear, but as long as there is language, there'll be interpretations.

_________________

– – –


Top
Profile Quote
Dindraug
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 29 Dec , 2004 8:59 am
Tricksy Elf!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:20 pm
Location: Tanelorn
 
Quote:
English Can express fear as "there is fear on me" but it is clumsy. However, Welsh has no problem with that particular setup
Huh? Not sure what you mean here Guru. To have fear on you, I really can't remember the Welsh but it is similar to the English, to be afraid or to be scared. Is that what you are saying? I think the issue may be that a lot of English that you have is Amercian English and has lost a lot of colloqualism. It still sits in English, and waits to be used like a shrouded cloak to layer a sense of the dark.

Or some such thing :LMAO:

Anyway, langauge and code. That I get, its factual language, it can mean only what it defines. Language and poetry, something else.

Personally I like language and translation. Posting with so many non-native writers is so much fun and a real eye opener. I really enjoyed sparring with Truehobbit about the word vermin in Manwe a few months back. She just did not have the background knowlage of native speaker, but I did not have the interpitational skills of non-native speaker.

Fun

_________________

'When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from delusion, it is called Religion'.

~Robert M. Pirsig


Top
Profile Quote
Guruthostirn
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 29 Dec , 2004 6:26 pm
That Weird American
Offline
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 7:30 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest U.S.
 
Din, the literal translation is "to have fear upon me". I got that from my mom...she's studying the language all out (already doing Scottish Gaelic, and working on Old Irish).

Interesting comment about the background necessary to understand specific words...I think that's one reason the American language drives me up the walls with their adopted words...you're never quite certain what they mean.

_________________

That crazy American Jerk...

"No stop signs, speed limits, no body's gonna slow me down..."

"You can run, but you'll die tired." -- What the archer said to the knight.


Top
Profile Quote
Lidless
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 03 Jan , 2005 4:51 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
Offline
 
Posts: 8261
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 8:21 pm
Location: London
 
I was learning and devising codes when I was 7 - had a good book on it. Basically swapping letters around, that sort of idea.

Suppose you jumble the letters of the alphabet (exc, Z) into any old 5x5, eg:

QWERT
YUIOP
ASDFG
HJKLX
CVBNM

When you have a sentence to code, just pair off the letters and look up the opposite ends of the rectangle they make. Thus the word "when" would become ""qjrb". (Take the first pair, wh, and you'll see that qj are the opposite corners of the rectangle.

QWERT
YUIOP
ASDFG
HJKLX
CVBNM)

So long as the other person uses the same 5x5, they'll be able to recode "qj" back to "wh" by the same rule.

If the two letteres were on the same line and didn't make a rectangle, such as "Ro", you just switch them around and get "Or".

I thought every language on the planet worked this way when translating from English. Hence my surprise in my first French class.

Of course, I still think Polish works this way, with the added refinement of replacing every third letter with z.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 1 of 1  [ 6 posts ]
Return to “The Symposium”
Jump to: