board77

The other day on IM, on the same day, I talked to someone who

- did not know what IKEA was

and

- had not read "The Little Prince".

I had alway somehow taken for granted that everybody know this kind of thing, just like everybody knows Coca-Cola... and it took me some time to get used to the idea that a person I know and like does not know those elementary human cultural values. (The cultural value of IKEA is prooved once you finished one piece without a divorce thought..... ). And this idea came into being:

Does a kind of universal culture exist?

And what do we find in there? (And eventually what would you put in there?)

I trust the person you're referring too was non-European?

I've often wondered about how 'universal' culture is not so very universal at all (except for a few things like Coke and Hamburgers ) but rather 'continental'. North-America has a different set from the South, Europe sort of pulls along and adds their own 'blend', Africa is a totally different pair of shoes and so is Asia and of course so is the Middle East.
In some instances things overlap - but there are not half as many as we think sometimes.

It's also an age thing .. and a language thing in some instances. I still don't know why no-one has translated the Swiss 'Globi'. I get totally blank stares when I talk about that most adorable of all Swiss cartoon figures

So - global culture... hmmmm....

- perhaps the statement that Swiss cheese is smelly (to anyone that's not Swiss that is?) :mrgreen:

I don't think there's such a thing as universal culture.
It sometimes seems that some things are universal, but that usually just is due to seeing only a limited part of the world, which is mistaken for the whole.

Not saying there's anything wrong with that, on the contrary, it would be unnatural to always want to see the whole, IMO. We can only grasp so and so much, I think, we'd go crazy if tried to do more.

So, yes, like Alandriel said, even within western first world culture you'd find big differences among what is considered universal in that universe. Go to Africa and Asia and nothing is the same.

So, let's extend this to more general cultural things - do you think there is a universal culture when it comes to how people react to people? Love, hate, these sorts of things? Is there anything that is truly universal?

Is it a bad, bad thing that my first thought when reading the title of this thread was, "Oh, Universal, the film production people?"

Nevermind, don't answer that; yes, it IS a bad, bad thing.

As "universal" not only covers Earth and the solar system, but the whole space with its millions of Galaxies, I doubt there'll be ever something like anything universal.
Even global culture is far fetched. Culture arises from the exchange between people, and some just want to be left alone. I wish I could drop out of global culture in many aspects, like shows of the "american idol" kind and the habit to say "in 2005" in German, but it's like spam and history, you cannot evade it (like Lincoln said, in regards to history, not spam).

Quote:

did not know what IKEA was

Norse god of furniture :mrgreen:

Universal culture bad. It is what the Americans want, and most fundimentalists. I could mention many names that have followed this ideal, and none of them are good. It leads to stagnation and oppression. Who would dictate it?

Having said that, common knowlage of somethings is good. Like Tolkien for example. Or chocolate.......

I remember discussing Tolkien in Egypt, among friends. Some of the guys knew his work, and had even seen Fellowship or TTT, but I believe they found this story so remote, they failed to see through its "exotism" and identify concepts which are universal (good vs. evil, friendship, love, duty... ), so they do not care much about it.

However, a few days later, I bore witness to a demonstration of "universal culture": men & football, and the consequent argument abot topics such as the referee's ineptitude...

Maybe I did not express myself as well as I would have liked.. or maybe thsi concept is not clearin my mind, as it does not clearly exist in some way.

I don't think that a universal - or global, my eloquent compatriote - culture does necessarily exist, but at least when speaking to other Europeans and/or those who are like me issued of a judeo-christian cultural background, I sometimes take things for granted - and then have to realise that they are not. Not everybody means the same when talking about friendship, hurt or joy. Concerning feelings, I understand the difference, and also concerning some specific knowledge - I don't expect that an Englishman knows who Schiller is - but I'd expect a German to know Shakespeare - maybe even more than an American, sometimes.

This is sometimes troublesome for me as to judge what can I expect from my students....

And even Breogan's example of football.... my dad does not even know the rules. Does Din? So is he a human being ?

one last word to Alandriel: your were (of course) right: the person in question was not European... what made you think of it? IKEA or The Little Prince?

I don't think Din has watched a football match in his life. Indeed, I would have more chance of explaining the offside rule than him.:mrgreen: I've personally found motorsport to be a more useful universal currency.

But then again, although I'm aware of the story of 'The Little Prince", I have never read it. I've never bought anything from IKEA either!

It's a good thing surely that there are some corners of the globe where certain brands and ideals haven't permeated.

Oh.... the ideal of "The Little Prince".... they should be everywhere.

I don't think I explained myself clearly enough...
Din may not watch/like football, right? but he knows of it, he knows what it is. Same with your dad, Nin, that was my point. Probably it's one of the hardest thing on the planet, to find someone who does not know what football, (soccer, fútbol, calcio...) is.

Quote:

It's a good thing surely that there are some corners of the globe where certain brands and ideals haven't permeated.

Amen!

Nin wrote:

what made you think of it? IKEA or The Little Prince?

Both actually :mrgreen: They're very European (although the Little Prince has been translated in many languages and has I believe a wider knowledge-base than IKEA - and I'm glad that's so :mrgreen: )

AMEN indeed! And also a big hurray to those few places that hold steadfast and disallow e.g. Mc D to open shoppe Some things really don't need to be 'exported' in my humble opinion.

You don't have a copy of "The little prince" Leoba That's scandalous! But I'm sure that will soon be remedied - who will be quicker? Nin or me?

I've got my own copy of "The Little Prince" :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Courtesy of Nin and there's an IKEA nearby, with plenty of ads on TV and radio...

However, I don't think there's a "global culture" as of yet...the question is whether or not such a culture would be a good thing.

I'm with Bre. Definitely football, followed closely by Coca Cola!
But maybe the only universal (or rather, global) cultural traits we all share are: love for our families and friends, and the capacity for violence towards "the others".
Or am I getting too philosophical here?

Quote:

Or am I getting too philosophical here?

Nah... just your usual
Now seriously... I couldn't agree more.

Breogán wrote:

Din may not watch/like football, right? but he knows of it, he knows what it is. Same with your dad, Nin, that was my point. Probably it's one of the hardest thing on the planet, to find someone who does not know what football, (soccer, fútbol, calcio...) is.

But surley Universal would mean something that is known by all, no matter where or when? Universal must mean time as well as space or it is only referring to a single instant.

Football is a historical point. It's meaning is limited to a historical period and between two points in time. I hav no doubt that it will die out, probably in the next hundred years or so, certainly in the next thousand. It has only been known around the world for a couple of centuries. In real terms, that is an instant.

Socrates did not know football, nor did Gautama Buddah or Jesus or Mohammed or Alaxander or Harold Godwinson or John Paston.

The only universals that can be known are those that effect all of hummanity (or beyond), so hunger, fed, night, day, birth and death. All events that will happen in all cultures at somepoint or other (unless night and day fade on some space voyage in the future but you know what I mean).

Besides which, football changes. Not like it was when I were a lad. so is the football my grandfather would know the same as the Soccar played in New York?

:mrgreen:

Din,

Neither did Buddha, JesusChrist, Tao, Mohammed, Socrates or Plato knew of IKEA, The Little Prince, or the relativity theory...
I believe that regardless of this topic's title, we are not talking about "universal", but everyday western culture - even when it's not truly culture what we are discussing here, but icons of this western way of living of ours.
And within those limits, IMO and regardless of the small changes, football, coca-cola, McDonald's... are, unfortunately, world-wide known "values".

Music is often described as a universal language. :mrgreen: (and mathematics too)

Quote:

(and mathematics too)

Then I am, I fear, in Jaeniver's world of not being able to communicate.

You can communicate...


You just have a speech impediment...