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Rove/ Libby Indictments Near?

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: Rove/ Libby Indictments Near?
Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 5:40 am
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Karl Rove will testify for a fourth time before the federal grand jury investigating the leak of a CIA officer's identity even though prosecutors have warned they can no longer guarantee he will escape indictment, lawyers said Thursday.

This is the first real indication that I have seen that the special prosecutor Fitzgerald really is thinking seriously about indicting Karl Rove, President Bush's closest advisor. According to the AP, Stephen Gillers, a New York University law professor, said that it was unusual for a witness to be called back to the grand jury four times and that the prosecutor's legally required warning to Rove before this next appearance is "an ominous sign" for the presidential adviser.

"It suggests Fitzgerald has learned new information that is tightening the noose," Gillers said. "It shows Fitzgerald now, perhaps after Miller's testimony, suspects Rove may be in some way implicated in the revelation of Plame's identity or that Fitzgerald is investigating various people for obstruction of justice, false statements or perjury. That is the menu of risk for Rove."

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200510 ... UBP89.html

If Rove (and possibly Louis Libby, Cheney's Chief of Staff) get indicted on top of Delay's indictment (and Bill Frist's problems with the SEC), it could really blow the top off the Republican Party.

Last edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Wed 12 Oct , 2005 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 11:22 am
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If Karl Rove committed a crime, I dearly hope he faces justice in a court of law. The man is some kind of Satanic genius. He took a draft dodger and made him the darling of the John Wayne military crowd while turning a war hero into a coward.

He should take that act to Vegas and pack in 3,000 people every night - two shows on Saturday - at $100 a pop to see that magic act.

I will shed no tears for Mr. Rove if he is judged guilty of a crime.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 2:46 pm
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We can only hope.


And SF he did it twice, once with McCain and then with Kerry. Both war vets, both beaten by a war dodger with the help of other vets. :scratch: Something fishy in Denmark eh?

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 3:23 pm
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If Rove and Libby were involved, can we really believe that they never once mentioned it to Bush and Cheney?

I'm hoping this doesn't stop at Rove, and Bush and Cheney get done for conspiracy too. Trying not to get my hopes up too much though!

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 3:33 pm
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Iavas, at most they will be named as unindicted co-conspirators (as Nixon was in the Watergate investigations).


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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 5:05 pm
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So being a co-conspirator isn't a criminal offense?

Not that it really matters I guess, as if they are named co-conspirators the scandal will still be pretty huge?

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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 5:08 pm
Not so deep as a well
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Iavas--

It just means bringing the indictment was problematic, in Nixon's case because he was a sitting President.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 5:21 pm
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So what would be the legal consequnces if Bush was named as a co-conspirator?

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 6:42 pm
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If Rove is indicted, this is a major problem. He doesn't have the clearance for the information that is the center of this investigation. Well, who could have gained access to the information in order to leak it?

Well, first of all, Rove isn't on that list. He's a staffer. Someone with access could have easily shared it with Rove since he's in the inner circles, but he isn't on the list of people who can go to the CIA and get the information.

Of course the Pres and the VP are on the list of people who could get the information.

After them, the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense, while not in direct authority, can acquire that information for use in their own activities.

Possibly the Joint Cheifs of Staff might have access, but not too likely.

Now the heads of the CIA woud definitely have it, and maybe the FBI and DHS would have it.

Also Joe Wilson may have known his wife's occupation. And former co-workers of Valerie Wilson-Plume would have known.

Definitely can get the info:
George W. Bush
Richard Cheney
George J. Tenet
Donald Rumsfeld
Paul Wolfowitz
Condoleezza Rice
Colin Powell
Other secret agents.

Maybe can get the info:
Robert Mueller
Tom Ridge

So, that's the suspect list. Oh, and a few under-secretaries.

If Bush is named, we may eventually see Bush in handcuffs.


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Axordil
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Posted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 6:43 pm
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Or a sudden outbreak of the avian flu and martial law.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sat 08 Oct , 2005 1:56 am
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If Bush is named as a co-conspirator, he will likely not be indicted for the same reason that Nixon was not, he is a sitting president. The real question is whether the Republican led House would actually initiate impeachment proceedings against him. I doubt it, in which case the Republican Party will lose all credibility.

Just a few months ago, there seemed to be a real possibility of the Republicans controlling all branches of the federal government for the foreseeable future. Now I think there is a pretty good chance they will lose congress next year and the presidency two years after that. And if Miers ends up being not that conservative on the court, they will have a lost their chance to solidify a conservative majority there as well.


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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sat 08 Oct , 2005 5:45 am
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Since last fall, on Manwe, I have been repeatedly and annoyingly saying that if Bush won in '04, he and his party would end up wishing he had not. However, dissatisfaction with the Republicans has not yet translated into a boost for the Democrats. If Bush continues to tank, '06 and '08 might be good opportunities for third parties to get themselves on the map (if not actually win).


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Sat 08 Oct , 2005 11:30 am
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Dave LF
the only way I see a third party as having any kind of chance to actually win is if we had some combination of the following events take place:

- the party must be well funded to mount a national campaign

- the party needs a well known figure to head the ticket who can inspire confidence in the voters

- the party needs a wealth of organizational people to plow through 50 different sets of laws to get on the ballot nationwide and do the everyday work of campainging and precinct work

- the party needs to carve out a target niche of voters and aim their ideas at them hoping to pry them lose from traditional patterns

-- the party needs at least one major issue that is being ignored or soft pedaled by the two major parties... the more of these they can find and exploit, the better

The current third parties have shown they can do none of these things. It will not be any of the usual half-of-one-percenters.

The greatest third party successes in the last forty years have come with George Wallace and his American Independent Party in 1968 and the Ross Perot effort in 1992. Wallace was able to capitalize on white blue-collar dissatisfaction with civil rights programs and garner 13% of the vote and actually win the electoral vote of five states. Perot, while failing to capture even a single state, did get almost one in every five popular votes. He seemed to be running on a common sense fiscal policy making the debt a major issue.

Both efforts were handicapped by several things:
- self destructiveness of both candidates who did things during the campaign which seriously questioned their credibility and temperment to to the job

- failure to appear that they could actually win, thus marginalizing themselves in the minds of a majority of voters and making them not the equal of the other two alternatives

- Vice Presidential candidates who turned out to be little more than bad jokes

- absence of a established infrasturcture of other politicians and politicos who could provide support in the states, state elected offices, and actual positions of power and authority

- major slippage of support in the final weeks of the campaign as possible voters "came to their senses" and did not want "to waste their votes"

For my two cents, if a Third Party were to have a real chance it would have to come from the true middle class. The person right now who tends to vote Republican but is on the lower end of the Republican income levels. The person who tends to vote Democratic but who is on the upper end of the typical Democratic income levels. In other words, a person who makes between 40K and 80K per year. They are most likely in the suburbs and are probably mostly white. These are the bulk of Americans and they really are poorly served by two parties whose policies tend to favor either the upper or lower income people.

I would love to see this happen and see a true realingment take place.
I would not bet five dollars that it will.
I would not bet a quarter that they will win.

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Lidless
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Posted: Sat 08 Oct , 2005 4:29 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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I have to say, my favorite presidential debate reply was by Ross Perot.

Reagan: "This man has no experience of government, of running a country."

Perot: "You are correct. I have no idea how to run up a four trillion dollar debt."

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Sat 08 Oct , 2005 4:30 pm
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Reagan didn't debate Perot. The 92 debates were Bush, Perot, and Clinton. The 96 debates were Dole, Perot, and Clinton.


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Lidless
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Posted: Sat 08 Oct , 2005 6:57 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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I sit corrected. It was Bush I, Clinton and Perot in '92.
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Well, they've got a point. I don't have any experience in running up a $4 trillion debt. (Laughter.) I don't have any experience in gridlock government where nobody takes responsibility for anything and everybody blames everybody else. I don't have any experience in creating the worst public school system in the industrialized world, but I do have a lot of experience in getting things done. So, if we're at a point in history where we want to stop talking about it and do it, I've got a lot of experience in figuring out how to solve problems, making the solutions work, and then moving on to the next one. I've got a lot of experience in not taking 10 years to solve a 10-minute problem. So, if it's time for action, I think I have experience that counts. If there's more time for gridlock and talk and finger pointing, I'm the wrong man.
I'm not sure I would have agreed with his solution, but I loved his answer.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 5:39 pm
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Interestingly, Fitzgerald seems to be focusing on the fact that Rove assured Bush that he had no role in the leaing of Plame's name. Apparently the theory is that if Rove purposely misled the president, the FBI, or the White House press secretary, a reasonable prosecutor might construe such acts as 'overt acts in furtherance of a criminal plan.'

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweek ... 007nj3.htm

Meanwhile, attention turns back to Scooter Libby. Apparently, Judith Miller "found" some additional notes that had somehow been "misplaced" that showed that she had a third previously undisclosed conversation with Libby. Apparently, Libby did not reveal to prosecutors or the grand jury that he had had this additional discussion with Miller. It is not known what the substance of the conversation was, but the simple fact that Libby failed to reveal such pertinent information to prosecutors or the grand jury could lead to obstruction of justice or perjury charges.

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweek ... 011nj1.htm


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 8:07 pm
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Yet they're still not the ones with the access. This has to go higher than Rove & Libby.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 8:25 pm
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C_G, if you are referring to what really happened, I tend to agree with you. If you are referring to what is going to happen legally, then I don't agree, at least to the extent that you mean that it will reach the level of Bush and Cheney. However, apparently Fitzgerald is investigating a wider circle, concentrating on the group of individuals who were pushing hard for the war in Iraq (according to the Wall Street Journal, of all places).


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 8:29 pm
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As for who will eventually get in legal trouble, of course it won't be Bush or Cheney, unless Fitzgerald is very good at his job. However, someone on my list of "who has access" will certainly need to be included on the list of people who are going down. Someone, after all, had to tell Rove and Libby. Someone with access.


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