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Is dressing up as a Nazi an acceptable pastime?

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Leoba
Post subject: Is dressing up as a Nazi an acceptable pastime?
Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 10:49 am
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I imagine you will have guessed by now what promts this thread; the news headlines this morning about Prince Harry, snapped at a friend's fancy dress party wearing a swastika on his arm and wearing German desert uniform (the theme was 'colonial and native').

Link here:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4170623.stm

Of course, the British tabloid press have condemned him for doing this. But is it really such a bad thing? As I just saw posted on another MB: "I once went to a fancy dress party as Arthur Dent, it doesn't mean I want to travel the universe dressed in my pyjamas...???"

I know someone (ex police officer) who once told me he went to his work fancy dress party as a Nazi. He had the uniform, because he does/did german WW2 re-enactment. He even had a little armoured truck with German insignia, parked outside the front of his house, and a lot of rather scary books in his bookshelf.

Where does it stop? I've seen people re-enacting Vietnam and even the First Gulf War. Where do you draw the line of acceptability?

Last edited by Leoba on Thu 13 Jan , 2005 11:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Berhael
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 10:51 am
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I think that having a "colonial and native" fancy dress party is already offensive.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 11:07 am
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I also think of 'Who does what' has something to do with it. It's terribly unfair of course... I mean, he might not have chosen to be born as Prince Harry.

But tough :P

People in the limelight ought to be a bit more sensible/sensitive to what kind of reactions result from their actions. WW2 stuff still sits raw with many. Sure I can understand the 'prank' and I don't really care (so long as he does not show up at my party dressed like that :wink:)

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 11:21 am
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I always wondered about the fun in series like "Hogans Heroes". It is obvious that making fun of horrible things is a means to deflect and work up its horror, and I know that specially the British like to make good potato German nazi saussage fun if possible, Schweinehund verdammt noch mal. I'm half offended and half envious; I envy the light-hearted carlessness of the approach, and I'm hurting as it still is a problem. To sum it up: I wish I could make jokes about it, but I cannot.

As for the royal dumbwit, as Ber said, even the party motto is offensive.

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peeg
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 12:21 pm
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That costume was in bad taste, in my opinion- couldn't he think of anything ELSE to go as? Like Alandriel said, people who are constantly in the limlight ought to be more careful about this sort of stuff.

You'd think the guy would learn.....it's almost like he enjoys giving the tabloids a field day.... :roll:

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Leoba
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 12:29 pm
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Quote:
in the limlight
Has our Royal Family grown Entish? :LMAO:


I agree that he should have known better, just based purely on his position, which like it or not he has to deal with. It's a poor judgement call.

On the other hand, it's not as though he signed up to the BNP (British National Party) - just dressing in a silly costume doesn't mean he's espousing those opinions.

I'm glad we can laugh about bad things, as a way of both dealing with and raising awareness of them - "The Germans" episode of "Fawlty Towers" is still hilarious today - at least I think so - am I in a minority, creasing up at the sight of John Cleese goose-stepping and barking: "don't mention the war"?


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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 12:46 pm
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I'd feel uncomfortable with a swastika on my sleeve...didn't he?

It's bad taste, I guess, but it's true that it depends who does it. The Bishops and Tarts party in Bridget Jones made me choke on my coke the first time I saw the film...I don't think it would be well received if someone here in Poland came to a fancy dress disguised as a priest. But that's culture for you. Exactly the same problem we have here on the boards- we can joke about certain people as long as we're closed and private, but once we're public, there's a problem.

Maybe the group Harry was partying with thought the Nazi costume was a great joke. Cool, but he forgot he has press following and that what he does has to be acceptable to the whole world, and not just a group of friends. It's like the difference between saying 'fuck' on tv and in the pub. It's too bad for Harry but that's how it is.

This reminds me of a modern art exhibition someone did a couple of years ago here...they took photographs of people dressed in Nazi uniforms and hung them up in a long friese on the wall of the gallery. The thing was, these were portraits taken not only of actual Nazis, but also actors who played them at some point in their career....there was a huge uproar over the exhibit, and one of our most famous actors, who was on one of these portraits, smuggled a sword into the gallery (he played in historical films too) and slashed at the photos, all in front of tv cameras and everything...

I cheered for him.

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Nin
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 1:49 pm
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Mummpizz has read my mind... or maybe it's jsut the similarity of background.

So: no, for me it's not acceptable. As an oversensibilised German I cannot laugh about it. I wish I could sometimes... but it's too close.

What makes me worry more: this boy has been to Eaton, hasn't he? That should be the fine flower of British education - and he did not learn a vital minimum of historical decency?

In general, I draw the line very high, and this is also, why I love to read about your re-enactment and archery, I would never do it. For me, it remains still a war and a weapon.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 1:58 pm
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Berhael wrote:
I think that having a "colonial and native" fancy dress party is already offensive.
I have to ask why? Is it anymore offensive than say celebrating Guy Fawkes night which is a real dig at the Catholics, or Halloween which does pretty much the same for Witch's.

It is also part of national heritage, and turning it into something offensive is itself wrong.

I hate to come over like a nationalist here (which I am not) but I do not think that reminding folks that Colonialism is where we all came from (the English being a bastard hybrid of the colonists who settled this isle in the 5-21 centuries, and so called 'indiginous' Brits are just previous waves of colonists).

Colonialism happened, but not recently. It is a mute point if folks who were colonised suffered. I actually think Harry made a valid point in wearing what he did. German expansion in 1939-45 was about colonisation as much as anything else. Something usually forgotten because of the way it happened, but the Germans then were looking to expand. That expansion was no different from what any other colonial power did if you go back as far as say Egypt, Assyria Babylon etc.

Bad taste it may have been, but he was digging at the subject of the party which is something that every culture has done. To say it is bad because he took one which is offensive to people today is missing the point he was making.

Sorry, didn't want to offend anybody's personnaly held beleifs but these are events that finished sixty years ago. Unless people personnally took part, why feel guilt?

(sorry to rant, personal bugbear. Not the Nazi thing, the guilt thing. It is like feeling guilt over origional sin. I did not take part in that, why should I feel guilt over it.)

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 3:40 pm
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Even after reading your post Din which i can understand i'd still say no it is not acceptable.

Let me rephrase, he should have been alright to wear it in theory since it's so far in the past etc etc. people should be able to wear whatever. But he's a member of the Royal Family that comes with responsibility whether he wants them or not. it wasn't a smart move for him.

But in reality many people will still take offence. History remains history and pretending it was just a joke it can hurt others. so no i don't find it acceptable if someone would show up wearing that.

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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 4:05 pm
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Jaeniver wrote:
History remains history and pretending it was just a joke it can hurt others. so no i don't find it acceptable if someone would show up wearing that.
Yes and no. Over time it becomes acceptable because less people are directly hurt by it. That is the criteria that someone - especially someone in the public eye who has the potential to hurt/offend many - should take into account.

Nowadays it would be fine to go to a party dressed up as a Spanish Inquisitor, for example, despite the torture and murder they did and the religious intolerence they stood for.

BTW - what is the percentage of German blood in Harry? I'm guestimating around 30%.

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 5:10 pm
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The pagans I hang with have a word for those in the community who think "secular" Halloween celebrations are offensive.

Actually several words.

Or a long list, really.

Dweeb, dingleberry, dink, doofus, tightass, anal-retentive, self-important, judgmental, hypocrtical, short-sighted, and no fun at parties.

That said, it's not the same thing at all as this incident, which makes me kind of twitchy. Why can't Harry be more like his dad and just roger his way across England and Europe as a pastime?

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Nin
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 5:17 pm
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Dindraug wrote:
German expansion in 1939-45 was about colonisation as much as anything else. Something usually forgotten because of the way it happened, but the Germans then were looking to expand. That expansion was no different from what any other colonial power did if you go back as far as say Egypt, Assyria Babylon etc.
Well, Din, the problem had the German War only been a colonisation aim, probably it would not be considered offensive any more. But it was associated to organised mass-murder and thus wearing the sign of the Nazi cross is associated not to territorial expansion, but to massive, brutal and organised murder.

The guilt problem.... that's a difficult one. Why should I feel guilty for what the Germans did 60 years ago? I have not done anything, personally and even my parents were children only. Nevertheless my family remains very marked by the war. My grand-mother was a Nazi - yet she lost a husand, a home and all her belongings in this war. My mother's sister did not get sane out of the years they spent in a danish refugee camp. She is schizophrenic until the very day. (And I'm still frigthened it might be genetic). When my uncle married a Jewish woman, his own mother stopped talking to him. It has nothing to do with guilt (on which I worked very hard too), that I cannot laugh. It's still too close. Sixty years are not enough, and for once, concerning the Nazi crimes, I hope that even 600 years will not be enough. But that's just my opinion. Yes, it is part of my history and as this I want to remember. But does remember necessarily mean laugh about it? I don't think so.

I have felt guilty, for the major part of my life, and it has played a role in my decision to leave Germany. It was not so much about what people had done or not done, but about the mentality behind it: it was that German sense of obeyance and duty, this Prussian army that made the genocide possible. So, alongside with this comes for me a responsability to remember. Not yet with humour - maybe in the next generation, or maybe for someone whose family history is not as heavily charged as mine.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 6:19 pm
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You guys would hate the pregnant nun dummy I made up for my Halloween party.........




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EDIT: sorry to following Nin's touching post with a bordering-on-inappropriate one like this. I wrote it after Ro's post, and then read the rest of the thread.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 6:41 pm
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Well, Din, the problem had the German War only been a colonisation aim, probably it would not be considered offensive any more. But it was associated to organised mass-murder and thus wearing the sign of the Nazi cross is associated not to territorial expansion, but to massive, brutal and organised murder.
But isn't that post war villification? The Nazis (to make the distiction from the ordinary Germans) did cause horrendous bloodshed, death etc. But so did the Soviets, so did the Brits, the Americans, China, Japan, Australia etc etc etc. There is little anti-Patton propergander, or Le May, or Harris, yet mention the name Himmler and everybody gets the creeps.

The German issue is that all the efforts after WWI have been forever tarnished by Nazi-ism. I am just not sure that is entirely right.

As mentioned above, we do (did) know a WWII reenactor who is particularly interested in Germany. He has an astonishing personal libary, which is very creepy. But why is it creepy? Why is this the big issue. Why not Soviet or Chinese communism? Why not carpet bombing of Japan? why not the Manhatton project?

One of the really facinating things to see in re-enactment is the respect given to people who reenact WWII by the real participents. As long at the kit is 100% accurate, they really do have respect for them, including thoseswho dress as Germans. It is facinating to see old soldiers who last met as opponants at D-Day or in the mountains of Italy, and how they now get on. There is very much a feeling of 'please don't forget what we did' from them, and they mean it. Even the SS verteren I met a few years ago, who refused to admit that what he did was wrong and that they failed because of the Russian mongrel (his words). But he thanked the guy who was dressed as a Fallchemjager for not letting what he did become forgotten. In Germany, he said he could not admit what he was part of even to his grandchildren. I found that sad.

And several people have mentioned being shown the tattos from concentration camps by old Jew's who then tell their grandchildren 'this is what we faced, this is what we looked at everyday, don't you forget'. It is apparently quite moveing.

Another interesting story, one which may be an urban myth, was of a group who had dressed as French Resistance fighters. They were approached by a woman who had been branded a collaberator after the war, and she launched such a tirade against them because of what had happened to her.

I am not sure what I am trying to say here, except this. Most of the people who find it offensive to depict WWII were not part of it. They are our generations, post war baby boomers who grew up on war stories without real understanding of what it meant to take part. Even those that still hate the otherside, after all these decades still take comfort that it is not forgotten in case it happens again.

Having said that, I did get the creeps when I saw a group portraying East German border guards. They went over in 1989 and bought the flags, uniforms and everything before it was thrown out.

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Nin
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 7:03 pm
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Dindraug wrote:

As mentioned above, we do (did) know a WWII reenactor who is particularly interested in Germany. He has an astonishing personal libary, which is very creepy. But why is it creepy? Why is this the big issue. Why not Soviet or Chinese communism? Why not carpet bombing of Japan? why not the Manhatton project?
I can only answer for myself, but for me it is creepy because I am German. This is my history. And I think that the Shoah has reached a level of organised horror that none other has.

This said: I often felt like I could not love my grand-mother because she never managed to say that she had believed in the wrong things. I find that sad too.

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Farawen
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 7:18 pm
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If he had worn that costume attending a party in Germany, he'd have been arrested. Displaying Nazi insignia is a punishable offense here. And I'm glad it is.

Din, when I read that the party's theme was 'colonial and native', my first thought was, "What the hell does a Nazi uniform have to do with colonial and native?" Nin already touched on this, but yeah, it's true that WWII has pretty much nothing to do with "traditional" colonialism. The Nazis' goal was not to colonialize a few territories here and there, but to conquer the world, annihilate "inferior races", and enslave all others. Some parts of the British population tend to joke about the Nazis a lot and the British yellow press amuse themselves by comparing modern Germans to Nazis, for example before big soccer games; to tell you the truth, to modern Germans this behavior is quite baffling.


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Axordil
Post subject: The uniform in question
Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 8:30 pm
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...looks like a Desert Korps number. So it would be the German colonizers trying to take land from the French and English colonizers in this case...

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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 8:39 pm
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Farawen, that is what normal colonisation is like. Ask the Carib American Indians...no wait, they are gone. There are other examples :roll: .

But WWII was about colonialism. Germany wanted its territory in the east, or maybe to rebuild the Empire (Reich, Empire, same thing). Just like the Japanese, or Italy. And the Brits did not fight to thrash the bad guys. They fought to retain imperial control and colonies. It is one of the great ironies of WWII that Britain fought to so hard to retain its Empire that it lost them.

Ok, so the Nazi's did want to remove the stain of the Slav from the world, but lets face it, after Tannenberg (1410) wasn't this an issue for them.

:mrgreen:

Sorry, taking this way off topic, but I find it really fascinating that a photo taken unawares at a party should cause such a fuss.

And football fans singing the Dambusters theme at football matches confuses us too ;) I think we are just crap at football and want to say well we won something ;)

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Nin
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Posted: Thu 13 Jan , 2005 9:54 pm
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Whatever you say, Din, a Nazi uniform is not just a simple war uniform. What makes nazism barbarian is not the motives of their war, but the motives and the organisation of their genocide. So - if it's an Afrika Corps uniforme or what the hell else, I don't care if he wears a "Hakenkreuz" on it.

You also asked why this is so particularly creepy, more than other sensitive issues: partly because of the symbols.... raise your hand and clap your heels together: the association is immediate. Say a few orders in a harsh German voice.... etc etc. It's easy to refer too. Tell me what evoques immediately the Manhattan project for you? Is there an image as easy as for the Nazis?

One last question: If someone would show up on a costume party dressed up as a colonialist with a whip and a black guy in chaines with him, whom he could hit from time to time? More time has passed, but I still would not find it acceptable.

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