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Great Presidents - what is an expert opinion?

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Great Presidents - what is an expert opinion?
Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 6:14 pm
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Since this thread will not progress unless I edit the question in the original post:

Where did the externally provided criteria of greatness come from, why is it authoritative?

=== Old post follows, please disregard ===

Branching off of the Terror -> Police States thread.

What is the objective definition of the subjective term "great"?

SF feeels that because a group of experts got together and decided that FDR was great, he must be because ... ?

I feel that "great" is a subjective term, and that no matter what you get a PhD in, you will still be making a subjective statement when you say someone is great.

These are all the degree programs offered by Yale, one of the most prestigious universities in the United States, possibly the world. Perhaps one of them can make someone an expert on objective subjective determinations.

Bachelors.
African American Studies (B.A.), African Studies (B.A.), American Studies (B.A.), Anthropology (B.A.), Applied Mathematics (B.A. or B.S.), Applied Physics (B.A. or B.S.), Archaeological Studies (B.A.), Architecture (B.A.), Art (B.A.), Astronomy (B.A.), Astronomy and Physics (B.S.), Biology (B.A. or B.S.), Chemistry (B.A. or B.S.), Chinese (B.A.), Classical Civilization (B.A.), Classics (Greek) (B.A.), Classics (Greek and Latin) (B.A.), Classics (Latin) (B.A.), Cognitive Science (B.A.), Computer Science (B.A. or B.S.), Computer Science and Mathematics (B.A. or B.S.), Computer Science and Psychology (B.A.), East Asian Studies (B.A.), Economics (B.A.), Economics and Mathematics (B.A.), Electrical Engineering and Computer Science (B.S.), Engineering: Biomedical Engineering (B.S.), Chemical Engineering (B.S.), Electrical Engineering (B.S.), Engineering Sciences (Chemical) (B.S.), Engineering Sciences (Electrical, Environmental, or Mechanical) (B.A. or B.S.), Environmental Engineering (B.S.), Mechanical Engineering (B.S.), English (B.A.), Environmental Studies (B.A.), Ethics, Politics, and Economics (B.A.), Ethnicity, Race, and Migration* (second major only), Film Studies (B.A.), French (B.A.), Geology and Geophysics (B.A. or B.S.), German (B.A.), German Studies (B.A.), Greek, Ancient and Modern (B.A.), History (B.A.), History of Art (B.A.), History of Science, History of Medicine (B.A.), Humanities (B.A.), International Studies* (second major only), Italian (B.A.), Japanese (B.A.), Judaic Studies (B.A.), Latin American Studies (B.A.), Linguistics (B.A.), Literature (B.A.), Mathematics (B.A. or B.S.), Mathematics and Philosophy (B.A.), Mathematics and Physics (B.A. or B.S.), Molecular Biophysics and Biochemistry (B.A. or B.S.), Music (B.A.), Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations (B.A.), Philosophy (B.A.), Physics (B.S.), Physics and Philosophy (B.A.), Political Science (B.A.), Portuguese (B.A.), Psychology (B.A.), Religious Studies (B.A.), Renaissance Studies (B.A.), Russian (B.A.), Russian and East European Studies (B.A.), Sociology (B.A.), Spanish (B.A.), Special Divisional Major (B.A. or B.S.), Theater Studies (B.A.), Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies (B.A.).

Yale University Graduate School of Arts and Sciences.

African American Studies, Ph.D. (combined degree only). African Studies, M.A. American Studies, M.A./Ph.D. Anthropology, Ph.D. Applied Mathematics, M.S./Ph.D. Archaeological Studies, M.A. Astronomy, Ph.D. Biological & Biomedical Sciences (BBS), Ph.D. Chemistry, Ph.D. Classics, Ph.D. Comparative Literature, Ph.D. Computer Science, M.S./Ph.D. East Asian Languages & Literatures, Ph.D. East Asian Studies, M.A. Ecology & Evolutionary Biology, Ph.D. Economics, Ph.D. Engineering & Applied Science, M.S./Ph.D. English Language & Literature, M.A./Ph.D. Epidemiology & Public Health, M.S./Ph.D. European & Russian Studies, M.A. Film Studies, Ph.D. (combined degree only). Forestry & Environmental Studies, Ph.D. French, Ph.D. Geology & Geophysics, Ph.D. Germanic Languages & Literatures, M.A./Ph.D. History, M.A./Ph.D. History of Art, Ph.D. History of Medicine & Science, M.A./Ph.D. International & Development Economics, M.A. International Relations, M.A. Investigative Medicine, Ph.D. Italian Language & Literature, Ph.D. Linguistics, Ph.D. Management, Ph.D. Mathematics, M.S./Ph.D. Medieval Studies, M.A./Ph.D. Music, M.A./Ph.D. Near Eastern Languages & Civilizations, M.A./Ph.D. Philosophy, Ph.D. Physics, Ph.D. Political Science, Ph.D. Psychology, Ph.D. Religious Studies, Ph.D. Renaissance Studies, Ph.D. (combined degree only). Slavic Languages & Literatures, M.A./Ph.D. Sociology, Ph.D. Spanish & Portuguese, Ph.D. Statistics, M.A./Ph.D. Urban Education Studies, M.A.

Then they have a School of Architecture offering various degrees in Architecture, a school of Art offering various degrees in various arts, a divinity school which can enable one to become ordained, an institute of sacred music, a school of drama, a faculty of engineering, a school of music, a School of Forestry & Environmental Studies, a school of Law that postiviely makes me drool, a school of management, a school of medicine, and a school of nursing.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Wed 28 Dec , 2005 3:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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yovargas
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 6:18 pm
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Didn't we already do this?


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 6:19 pm
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No. We argued about whether FDR was great or not, one side being based on the opinion of experts, the other based on the knowledge that "great" is subjective.

In that thread, I tried to ask "what is expert?" but the question was repeatedly dismissed.

This time the thread topic is "what is expert?"


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elfshadow
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 6:24 pm
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It's just a matter of opinion as to what makes a great president. An education in politics, sociology, economics, history, whatever can help, but a die-hard libertarian is not going to like a more socialist president like FDR, for example. Because, using FDR, it would be impossible to know whether his policies decreased the intensity of the depression, increased its length, or didn't do a damn thing. It also depends on what type of policies you feel are more important, like domestic vs. foreign.


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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 6:55 pm
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This happened in another thread too, didn't it? This makes 3 if I'm not mistaken.

Opinions - whether made by an expert in a field or a layman on the street - are all equally false, and each opinion can be discarded just as easily as the next. Because that is what "opinion" is.

I think what SF was really trying to say is that professionals can more accurately produce rankings and reports (not opinions) based on facts and statistics than the non-professional, since the professional has more working knowledge of such things and the layman does not.

Big difference between factual reports and opinions. Don't get them mixed up.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 7:05 pm
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This thread really is different.

Ok everyone. This is the difference.

In other threads, we discussed whether FDR was great. The arguments were based on whether expert opinion was expert or opinion, but the argument was whether or not FDR was great.

This thread is only about whether expert opinion is expert or opinion.

Does a PhD grant you expert status in determing greatness? That's the question of the thread.

So far Elf and Onizuka say it is opinion.


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 7:30 pm
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We live in the world of today where some people confuse the worth of every citizen with the worth of every opinion. We live in a world where the great unwashed .... the great uneducated .... the great under educated ... the great uniformed ... truly believe that because they thought they heard the words "all men are created equal" somewhere, (perhaps on a restroom wall next to a dirty poem) it means that their opinion is of equal value and weight with someone with vastly more education in that field than they have.

Fine. Its a free country.

Add to that formula the extremists ... the wacko's .... the flat earthers ... the conspiracy theorists .... and everyone else with an axe to grind ... and we get a pool of people who do not want to be confused by anyone who simply knows more than they do.

Again, its a free country.


To be blunt here --- opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one. And for some people, there is not much difference between those two things.

For others, we happen to believe that education is important. We believe that training is important. We believe that the peer review of others is important. We believe that research and scholarship are important. We believe that despite your possession of your own personal asshole, all opinion is not equal.

Now take an entire group of fairly selected experts in a specialized field and apply carefully crafted criteria to them. Ask them to take their education, their training, their scholarship, their research, and all the other tools at their disposal and evaluate a question in their field of expertise.

Take thirty or fifty or eighty of these men and women and pool their knowledge, their training, their research, their expertise to one question.
The result is expert opinion.

Take it or leave it .... its a free country and it matters not to me who wishes to wallow in self righteous ignorance or bias.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 7:40 pm
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SF, try topicality. I'm not saying that all opinions are equally informed.

I'm saying that informed opinions are still opinions.

Is that extremism?

I think it's extremism to misinterpret my argument the way you did. I also think it's extremism to say that a PhD confers the ability to turn the subjective into the objective. To say that a PhD confers the ability to do that is indeed self righteous ignorant bias.


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 7:51 pm
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You have a right to your opinion. I have already agreed with that.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 8:11 pm
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SF...

Stay on topic please.


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 8:27 pm
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Your thread is about expert opinion. My post was about expert opinion.
You do get so cranky when the trap fails to spring as you planned for it to do.

Relax.
Take a deep breath.
Step away and relax.
Its okay.
It really is.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 9:18 pm
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As I've been through before, I believe thatt here are objective standards that leaders can be judged by. The secret is to ignore policy substance in favour of other factors.

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yovargas
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 9:20 pm
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It's possible to objectively judge someone by a chosen standard. Is it possible to objectively judge which standard is the best standard?


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TheMary
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 9:36 pm
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Quote:
Does a PhD grant you expert status in determing greatness? That's the question of the thread.
No way it just means you spent more on your education, have a larger vocabulary than I do, and probably make more money than I do since you have a PhD.

It's like vicious circle. You need a PhD in order be considered in "expert" (in most but not all cases), so it's really all about your degree.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 10:01 pm
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If a 17 year old cashier at McDonalds tells me that I have a blood clot that is going to give me a heart attack, I will look at him a bit weird. Why? Because one he does not have a degree, two he does not have the expirence with cardiology. Why does he not have those, because he has not gone to school, has not studied the subject in depth, does not know anything more than what he has read in magazines and books, has no real world expirence in cardiology, and has not practiced his learned knowledge in the field, ever.

But if a respected cardiologists tells me I am going to have a heart attack and need to get to a hospital, I will do it.

Now if historians who have studied American History their entire professional career, have spent years learning the history, (not hours or days, but years). Have studied and gobbled up every bit of information on American History, has had continual peer review by peers who have spent 30 years learning American History and who have also dug up every piece of evidence known to man, says something, sorry I am going to give those doctorates more weight in their opinions than I am some undergrad who has read a few books and thinks they know something.

You see I think J.R.R. Tolkien would have a better formed opinion about Middle Earth than anyone on any message board. Why, he knows more, period.

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 10:04 pm
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Quote:
Does a PhD grant you expert status in determing greatness? That's the question of the thread.
from CG

If that indeed is the sole question of the thread, it is one of the more dishonest questions ever posed here. It is done with the obvious narrow and nefarious purpose to produce a pre-determined, bias filled answer that suits the particular bias and preconcieved notions of the thread starter.

Please tell me who is saying that a Ph.D. grants you an expert status in determining greatness?

Nobody is or has said that.

The starter of this thread has intentionally worked in the subject of GREAT PRESIDENTS. CG, it is well known based on many previous discussions that you take serious dispute with the many and repeated findings of expert panels - even the one assembled by Libertarians - which selected Washington, Lincon and FDR as Great Presidents. This totally rubs you the wrong way because you do not like FDR for political reasons and are as such blinded to his true record in office and his contribution to the nation.

The panels assembled to make these many and repeated determinations of evaluation were not made up of people who were qualified because they had a Ph. D. And what is more, you have been handed these studies so many times and asked to read over the qualifiications of these people so many times that by now you well know that .

But to produce the answer you want - your purposely and dishonestly frame the question in the most narrow fashion possible, using a dishonest and untrue criteria. Shame on you.

I challenge anyone to review the complete credentials of the people who were rated as EXPERTS and made up these panels. To say their only qualification was that they had a Ph. D. is like saying the only qualifications of Lawrence Oliver, Dustin Hoffman and Spencer Tracy to be actors was that they could read lines. Its absurd in the extreme and completely dishonest.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Mon 19 Dec , 2005 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 10:07 pm
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yovargas wrote:
It's possible to objectively judge someone by a chosen standard. Is it possible to objectively judge which standard is the best standard?
No, but we can reach some sort of consensus.

Why, for example, do I never hear anyone say that George W. Bush is a better President than Ronald Reagan was? Why does no-one say that Jimmy Carter was a better President than Bill Clinton?

Here is what I see the problem as. We have a bunch of judges sent out to judge the quality of several restaurants. One of them really like Chinese food, and thus would prefer to eat at the Chinese restaurant. Another likes French, another likes Greek, and so on. Still, this doesn’t mean that the judge who prefers Chinese will only give high marks to the Chinese restaurant. If he goes to the Chinese restaurant and needs to sit at a wobbly table and wait for hours under a flickering light bulb for a meal that’s too small and has a live centipede in it, then he should be reasonably expected to give the Chinese restaurant low marks.

In another thread, we discussed the qualities that make a good leader. This isn’t something that we can agree on with certainty, but we can have some reasonable ideas about it. Similarly, our judges would have probably got together and decided what they were looking for in a good restaurant before they set off. They can’t say for certain what makes a good restaurant, but they can have a reasonable idea – eg: prompt service, cleanliness, ambience, a varied menu, good value, no unexpected arthropods in the food, ect.

We should be able to come up with some leadership qualities that satisfies most of us, and then apply them to Presidents. If we can’t do that, then I don’t see how anything qualitative can be judges objectively – there would be no good cars, good choclate, good cities to live in, ect.

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 10:14 pm
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This silly and senseless idea being floated here that there is something wrong with expert opinion evaluating presidents and that all you need is a Ph. D. to be an expert evaluating presidents is bunk. Well, its much worse than bunk but i will leave it to that right now.

Here is the 1996 Arthur Schelsinger Jr. panel

In 1996, the dean of American historians, Arthur Schlesinger Jr. conducted a poll of the most respected historians, political scientists, writers and experts in the USA.

Besides Schlesinger himself, here is the remainder of the distinguised panel.
Participants in 1996 Poll

Samuel H. Beer, Harvard University
John Morton Blum, Yale University
Alan Brinkley, Columbia University
Douglas Brinkley, University of New Orleans
Walter Dean Burnham, University of Texas
James MacGregor Burns, Williams College
Mario Cuomo
Robert Dallek, Boston University
Robert H. Ferrell, Indiana University
Louis Fisher, Library of Congress
Eric Foner, Columbia University
George Frederickson, Stanford University
Doris Kearns Goodwin
Norman Graebner, University of Virginia
Henry Graff, Columbia University
Stephen Hess, Brookings Institution
Morton Keller, Brandeis University
Louis Koenig, New York University
William Leuchtenburg, University of North Carolina
David Levering Lewis, Rutgers University
Arthur Link, Princeton University
Forrest McDonald, University of Alabama
Merrill Peterson, University of Virginia
Richard M. Pious, Barnard College
Robert V. Remini, University of Illinois at Chicago
Donald A. Ritchie, Senate Historical Office
Robert Rutland, University of Virginia
Joel Silbey, Cornell University
Paul Simon, U.S. Senate
Stephen Skowronek, Yale University
Hans Trefousse, City University of New York
Sean Wilentz, Princeton University

The results:

Of all the presidents in USA history - only three ranked as GREAT. They were
Abraham Lincoln
George Washington
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Lincoln was the only president ranked as GREAT by every member of the distinguised panel of experts. That gave him a perfect rating of 4.0.

Washington and Roosevelt were tied at 3.97 having garnered one less GREAT vote and a single NEAR GREAT vote to lessen their rating slightly.

Other such panels are made up of similar excellently qualified experts.

Now please, everyone posting here, go and look up the credentials of these people. These are not mere life long students who had the money, time and tenacity to get a Ph. D. and became experts. Such an implication is absurd and dishonest.

It takes much more than an education to be considered as an expert in any field. My earlier post discusses this but has been ignored by CG who insists on the most narrow framing of his own dishonest question.

Yeah, anybody can walk in front of a camera and become an actor. Robert DeNiro ain't any better than me. take my word for it --- its my opinion and I could be right... after all, its just subjective opinion. And that is sarcasm for those who may not want to recognize it.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 19 Dec , 2005 10:22 pm
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It is not a trap. My question can be best summed up by the statement made by yovargas.
yovargas wrote:
It's possible to objectively judge someone by a chosen standard. Is it possible to objectively judge which standard is the best standard?
Now, there are times when education does make an opinion more worthwhile. I will listen to a mechanic about my care more than I will listen to a non-mechanic. I will listen to a doctor about my health more than I will listen to a non-doctor. I will listen to a historian about whether or not a particular quote can be attributed to a particular person more than I will listen to a non-historian.

However, I will listen to the doctor if he talks about my car and I will not listen to the mechanic if he talks about my health. Inappropriate authority.

Is there any way to objectively determine the subjective standard of "great"? What is the appropriate authority?

(by the way, I like how that board with token libertarians has become a board created by libertarians - what happened to it being a board composed of the two very distinct and divergent ideologies of conservatism and libertarianism? )

I guess, based on SF's response, a PhD isn't enough, but 60 people with PhDs is enough to turn the subjective into the objective.

So, how many PhDs in what fields does it take as a minimum qualification to say someone is great? I've posted the list of all degrees offered by Yale. That should be a good initial guide.

What is the appropriate authority?


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yovargas
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Quote:
This silly and senseless idea being floated here that there is something wrong with expert opinion evaluating presidents and that all you need is a Ph. D. to be an expert evaluating presidents is bunk.
It'd be nice if you actually understood what we were arguing before trying to argue against it. Care to answer my question?
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It's possible to objectively judge someone by a chosen standard. Is it possible to objectively judge which standard is the best standard?


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