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Great Presidents - what is an expert opinion?

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:02 pm
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Our knowledge is the amassed thought and experience of innumerable minds.

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yovargas
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Opinions aren't knowledge.


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Ara-anna
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Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience.

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:06 pm
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from CG
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Therefore the report of the Disparate Ideology Institute is
CG, you should write an email to the people at Google. Despite several exhaustive searches, they have no record of such an institution.

This is a very confusing thread.

First we find out that all it takes is two simple letters to answer the threads central question. NO

Then we find out that nobody thinks otherwise. So there is nothing to talk about since there is no clash of ideas.

Then we find out that the threads key question can be changed and changed and changed again and when people want to answer the original thread topic, they are repeatedly criticized.

Then we find out that certain people in this thread use titles of organizations who take such polls that are non-existant.

The we find out that the polls of Ph.D. holders on Presidential Greatness do not exist either.

And after all that we are suppose to "move on"?

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:07 pm
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By the way, I'm not trying to get you to do my work for me. I'm trying to eliminate all distractions that could prevent you from answering the core issues.


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Ara-anna
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Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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sauronsfinger wrote:
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Therefore the report of the Disparate Ideology Institute is
CG, you should write an email to the people at Google. Despite several exhaustive searches, they have no record of such an institution.
As I've already said:

"Disparate Ideologies Institue" is my nickname for the Federalist Institute, the institue that did the report that we both agree is subjective.

And we agree that they are composed of disparate ideologies because you said that they are conservative and libertarian, and I've shown based on a list of issues that you posted many times in another thread that libertarians and conservatives disagree on those issues. That makes them disparate ideologies.

But you already know that.
sauronsfinger wrote:
This is a very confusing thread.

First we find out that all it takes is two simple letters to answer the threads central question. NO

Then we find out that nobody thinks otherwise. So there is nothing to talk about since there is no clash of ideas.

Then we find out that the threads key question can be changed and changed and changed again and when people want to answer the original thread topic, they are repeatedly criticized.
Um, what we find is that there is a second layer to investigate, but you don't want to because you don't like the way the original question was worded.
sauronsfinger wrote:
Then we find out that certain people in this thread use titles of organizations who take such polls that are non-existant.
The Federalist Institute doesn't exist?
sauronsfinger wrote:
The we find out that the polls of Ph.D. holders on Presidential Greatness do not exist either.
I never said that. All I said was that they were subjective. Did that one come out of your imagination?


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:12 pm
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You are young, my son, and, as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters.
Plato

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sauronsfinger
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from CG
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I'm trying to eliminate all distractions that could prevent you from answering the core issues.
yes.... and here was your core issue as stated from the very beginning
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Does a PhD grant you expert status in determing greatness? That's the question of the thread.
CG - I have answered your core question. Clearly and without any ambiguity or shading. That answer was NO.

Nobody can provide a more clearcut answer than that to what YOU STATED was the key and central question of this thread.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Meril36
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CG already told you to what he is referring when he says "Disparate Ideology Institute." As you are so fond of saying, please

R
E
A
D

I believe the original question was changed (from what I gather) so that what CG was asking would be more clear.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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sauronsfinger wrote:
from CG
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I'm trying to eliminate all distractions that could prevent you from answering the core issues.
yes.... and here was your core issue as stated from the very beginning
We discovered that when you peel back the first layer of the onion, you find a second layer underneath, to use a metaphor.

Does the onion have a center or is each layer from a whole different vegetable?


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:18 pm
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Even good opinions are worth very little unless we hold them in the broad, intelligent, and spacious way.


BTW what exactly is the question? I hear answer the question, but do not see the question anywhere.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:23 pm
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CG - I have answered your core question. Clearly and without any ambiguity or shading. That answer was NO.
Yes. Wonderful. That means that there is absolutely nothing else to talk about, right?. Odd, for a thread that has nine pages.


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Ara-anna wrote:
BTW what exactly is the question? I hear answer the question, but do not see the question anywhere.
To set up the question:

Various polls have been taken of great presidents. In one particular poll, carefully crafted criteria were put to historians to determine which ones were great.

Now, someone had to create the criteria, because it is the critera that actually determines which president is great. Without that criteria, each president is merely a collection of data.

The question of this layer:

What were the "greatness" qualifications of the criteria provider?

The criteria provider might be a historian, but then again might not be. I don't care what other qualifications in other fields he had. I want to know what made the criteria provider a sufficient expert on greatness that he can provide these criteria to historians and get an objective answer.

But SF did answer, in a way, and sort of seemed to agree that the report was subjective, I think.


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:30 pm
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Quote:
The Federalist Institute doesn't exist?


If you check this thread, I believe the group you have in mind in the Federalist Society. They helped sponsor a study of rating presidents. The Federalist Insititute appears not to actually exist. Google does show a World Federalist Institute - and if you go there and read about them, it would seem that they are not the group referred to in this thread.

Thats okay. It is a mere mistake of titles and we all make them including me. No big deal and it reflects nothing upon you or your intelligence.

The non existant group that I was referring to was your mythical Disparate group. Which we both know you named to bring up the old argument from the old thread and we both have plowed that ground to death.

Interesting that the Federalist Soceity itself disagrees with you as evident from their own statement of purpose. It declares itself to be an organization of conservatives and libertarians. they join for common purpose, and he members of that group, certainly do feel a kinship of ideealogies... otherwise they would not be in bed together. If you CG are not a member of the Federalist Society, then you - as a person - are not in bed with them. But many libertarians and conservatives have no trouble with the cojoining of idealogies.

from CG
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Does the onion have a center or is each layer from a whole different vegetable?
Never was too good with the old farming and soil gig. I wil l leave that to some of our rural members who have such expertise.

And to Ara-anna............... I love your points of wisdom here --- most excellent.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:31 pm
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from yovargas
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Yes. Wonderful. That means that there is absolutely nothing else to talk about, right?. Odd, for a thread that has nine pages.
Sadly, it took nine pages for you and others to admit that.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:35 pm
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And to Ara-anna............... I love your points of wisdom here --- most excellent.
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Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
You do realize that that statement applies to you - nearly always arguing for the conventional or mainstream opinion and damning CG's views as radical extremism - than to anyone else in this thread?

So are you going to allow us to discuss something else besides the already-repeatedly-answered opening question now?


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:38 pm
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yovargas -- you are a free citizen and as such are entitled to make any interpertation you would like. Its still a free country.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:42 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
yovargas -- you are a free citizen and as such are entitled to make any interpertation you would like. Its still a free country.
:scratch: I take it from that answer that you have a different interpretation? And I also take it from your non-answer that you won't allow us to discuss something else besides the already-repeatedly-answered opening question now?


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Fri 30 Dec , 2005 4:45 pm
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yovargas -- as a board member, you are free to discuss whatever you like... and I will defend your right to do so.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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