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Pension Problems, Pollution and more

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Pension Problems, Pollution and more
Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 1:08 pm
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If you hold a job which promises you a pension, the deal was a simple one. Instead of getting a higher cash wage during the period when you actually worked, you would instead defer money and collect it when you could no longer work in your older years. Most employers did not care how the employee compensation pie was divided --- wages, benefits, retirement, etc. The bottom line cost is still the bottom line cost.

If you work for an employer for thirty years and were promised a certain level of pension benefits, that is money that you have given up for the last thirty years but will collect in the future.

As most of us know, there has been no shortage of companies in the last couple of years which have announced that they can or will no longer honor and fund the contractual agreed to pension plans of its workers. It has been believed that these are cash strapped companies who are striving to stay our of bankruptcy.

This article from todays New York Times gives a more complete picture.
Quote:
More Companies Ending Promises for Retirement

By MARY WILLIAMS WALSH
Published: January 9, 2006
The death knell for the traditional company pension has been tolling for some time now. Companies in ailing industries like steel, airlines and auto parts have thrown themselves into bankruptcy and turned over their ruined pension plans to the federal government.


Shifting the Cost of Retirement Now, with the recent announcements of pension freezes by some of the cream of corporate America - Verizon, Lockheed Martin, Motorola and, just last week, I.B.M. - the bell is tolling even louder. Even strong, stable companies with the means to operate a pension plan are facing longer worker lifespans, looming regulatory and accounting changes and, most important, heightened global competition. Some are deciding they either cannot, or will not, keep making the decades-long promises that a pension plan involves.

I.B.M. was once a standard-bearer for corporate America's compact with its workers, paying for medical expenses, country clubs and lavish Christmas parties for the children. It also rewarded long-serving employees with a guaranteed monthly stipend from retirement until death.

Most of those perks have long since been scaled back at I.B.M. and elsewhere, but the pension freeze is the latest sign that today's workers are, to a much greater extent, on their own. Companies now emphasize 401(k) plans, which leave workers responsible for ensuring that they have adequate funds for retirement and expose them to the vagaries of the financial markets.

"I.B.M. has, over the last couple of generations, defined an employer's responsibility to its employees," said Peter Capelli, a professor of management at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. "It paved the way for this kind of swap of loyalty for security."

Mr. Capelli called the switch from a pension plan to a 401(k) program "the most visible manifestation of the shifting of risk onto employees." He added: "People just have to deal with a lot more risk in their lives, because all these things that used to be more or less assured - a job, health care, a pension - are now variable."

I.B.M. said it is discontinuing its pension plan for competitive reasons, and that it plans to set up an unusually rich 401(k) plan as a replacement. The company is also trying to protect its own financial health and avoid the fate of companies like General Motors that have been burdened by pension costs. Freezing the pension plan can reduce the impact of external forces like interest-rate changes, which have made the plan cost much more than expected.

"It's the prudent, responsible thing to do right now," said J. Randall MacDonald, I.B.M.'s senior vice president for human resources. He said the new plan would "far exceed any average benchmark" in its attractiveness.

Pension advocates said they were dismayed that rich and powerful companies like I.B.M. and Verizon would abandon traditional pensions.

"With Verizon, we're talking about a company at the top of its game," said Karen Friedman, director of policy studies for the Pension Rights Center, an advocacy group in Washington. "They have a huge profit. Their C.E.O. has given himself a huge compensation package. And then they're saying, 'In order to compete, sorry, we have to freeze the pensions.' If companies freeze the pensions, what are employees left with?"

Verizon's chief executive, Ivan Seidenberg, said in December that his company's decision to freeze its pension plan for about 50,000 management employees would make the company more competitive, and also "provide employees a transition to a retirement plan more in line with current trends, allowing employees to have greater accountability in managing their own finances and for companies to offer greater portability through personal savings accounts."

In a pension freeze, the company stops the growth of its employees' retirement benefits, which normally build up with each additional year of service. When they retire, the employees will still receive the benefits they earned before the freeze.

Like I.B.M., Verizon said it would replace its frozen pension plan with a 401(k) plan, also known as a defined-contribution plan. This means the sponsoring employer creates individual savings accounts for workers, withholds money from their paychecks for them to contribute, and sometimes matches some portion of the contributions. But the participating employees are responsible for choosing an investment strategy. Traditional pensions are backed by a government guarantee; defined-contribution plans are not.
=====================================

At the same time that these events are happening, here is mounting political pressure in Washington to reform Social Security. Make no mistake - "reform" will NOT mean raising SS benefits to compensate for companies screwing employees out of pension benefits. So far, the SS effort has been turned back. But with the federal government having to take over a portion of retirement benefits as private corporations renege on them, you have to wonder just how big this pension situation will become. Will it develop into a major crisis?

I retired a few months ago. I taught school in Michigan for 33 years and have a certain defined pension funded by monies paid in for 33 years by my employer and by myself. Right now, these funds are solvent and on solid financial ground. Of course, the same could be said a few years ago for many private pensions that have since been reneged on.

I sometimes wonder what I would do if the State of Michigan announced that they could no longer honor my pension. And what happens if the Social Security benefit that I hope to get in seven years is also lowered or eliminated?

It is no demographic secret that my generation - the Baby Boomers - are retiring and collecting. Four four decades we have been payers and now we are fast becoming collectors. We marched for Civil Rights when state governments said otherwise. We fought a war and fought for womens rights. We were the rebels who took to the streets and decided we could tell the government what to do. We are not a generation that will accept getting screwed quietly.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Sat 14 Jan , 2006 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 3:36 pm
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As an X-er I have very little understanding as to why you are so shocked about the government you built is screwing you.

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 3:51 pm
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Ara-anna
at this point it is NOT the government but rather private corporations who are screwing people out of their promised pensions.

If Social Security is reshaped by the radical right as some want to do, then the government can get in line to screw all of us.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 4:23 pm
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Well my generation was handed a jar of vasoline at birth. We figured we had to work until we die anyway.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 4:59 pm
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I have to agree with Ara against SF here.


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 5:11 pm
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what exactly are you agreeing with? Ara-anna offered more of a quip than a factual statement..... it was without support or foundation.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 6:26 pm
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Why are these corporations, companies, and businesses cutting pensions and benefits? I think that is the question of this thread.

I think it is because of government involvment in business. Optimal efficiency cannot be reached, thus money is lost, thus some things must be cut. Until now, it was other things that were cut (utility, small benefits, holiday bonuses - that sort of thing). But now it has gotten to a point where these companies are having to tear up 30-year-old, almost "sacred" contracts because they wouldn't be able to afford upholding them.

Add to that increasing taxation, inflation, minimum wages......

It might be a lot like Germany is in a little while. Down in the pit.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 6:59 pm
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In that book I keep referencing on threads like this, The Fourth Turning, the authors predicted this would happen. In addition, if they are right, you can expect to see the Baby Boomer generation realize in a few years that they are bankrupting the future of their children by causing such a financial burden on society by their reitirement- and then start voting away their entitlements.

By the time the Xer generation (or 13th generation- born mid 60s-mid 80s) gets to retirement age, the system will be gutted, and the 13th generation retirees will live out their elder years in poverty and hardship, unless they've managed to save something for themselves. :( It's happened several times already, and is a predictable cycle. No one will care about their hardship, though, because that generation tends to be looked down upon their whole lives. Who cares if they are having a hard time? They are losers anyway. :roll:

By the time the Millenials (born mid 80s- about 2000) get to retirement age, there will have been some sort of massive social change, with lots of reforms and they will live out their retirement years in comfort and respect like the WWII generation did/are.

I'm of the 13th generation, by the way, and I've saved nothing for retirement yet. My husband theoretically will have a pension and does have a 401K... but we will likely be up the creek without a paddle when the time comes. We really need to get our finances in order....

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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 7:06 pm
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Maria -- more wisdom for the GENERATIONS duo. fantastic.

The GI Generation already has gotten many times back what they put into almost every public program and their entitlements have been awesome. Of course. they deserve since they are The Greatest Generation... right? And those future repeat GI's - the Millenials -- the will find a way to deserve it also..... we shall see.

I do think that Strauss and Howe may not be as accurate in predicting the Boomer reaction to all this. I do not see myself voting to cut benefits I have paid into for all of my working life. And if the government tried to take it without a vote .... well ... the Million man March will look like a picnic compared to what will be in Washington to protest that fraud.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 7:37 pm
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I dunno. You boomers can get awfully altruistic sometimes. If you see that the huge retirement benefits are financially ruining the country, I could see the same Idealists that protested the Vietnam war so effectively embracing some self sacrifice to save their country.

After a while, though. We aren't truely feeling the pinch yet. If we keep cutting taxes while running a war it will come sooner than expected!

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 7:49 pm
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Maria - the day the boomers willingly cut their own lavish retirement pensions is the day SF and I agree on the scope of government. Look at any Social Security debate between SF and I.


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 7:56 pm
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CG and Maria

I draw a distinction between recieving benefits that I have paid in for such as Social Security and other government programs that I could benefit from in the future.

I would not accept any reduction in what I have been promised in SS because I have paid into it for 40 years and consider that a contract between myself and the government. I may be willing to advocate and vote for cutting certain broader programs which could benefit me but were of a different nature, ie: being normal programs from the budget.

SS and pensions are monies deferred from placing in my pocket today. It is money that i could have been spending for the past forty years but have deferred. I will not give up that money.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Mon 09 Jan , 2006 8:17 pm
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You will not accept...

Do you realize that from my point of view, I will be paying into SS for 40 years without getting any return at all? That's why it makes no utilitarian difference in the benefits to me whether or not they exist.

In 40 years, I won't be receiving SS, whether or not it exists. No Gen-Xer will be receiving SS in 40 years, whether or not it exists.

So the only question for us is should we pay for nothing, or should we not pay for nothing.

You want those currently working to pay for your retirement. That makes you an enemy of the working man.


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sauronsfinger
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CG, dusting off his 100% reliable crystal ball, gazes into the distant future and reveals what it holds for all of us .... or some of us ... or none of us...

Quote:
Do you realize that from my point of view, I will be paying into SS for 40 years without getting any return at all? That's why it makes no utilitarian difference in the benefits to me whether or not they exist.

In 40 years, I won't be receiving SS, whether or not it exists. No Gen-Xer will be receiving SS in 40 years, whether or not it exists.
Neat how you have these mystical magical powers to see the future with such clarity and depth.

Perhaps you could prove your worth in this department by performing a far more simple and much closer test of your powers to accurately predict the future like giving me the next Powerball lottery numbers once it goes over $100 million? If you can predict complicated events forty years down the road, something in a few days or weeks should be childs play for such a seer.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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You sound exactly like the next-to-last participant in a Ponzi Scheme insisting that the scheme not be shut down until after he collects.

You so strongly desire to not be the last victim
SF wrote:
I would not accept any reduction in what I have been promised in SS because I have paid into it for 40 years and consider that a contract between myself and the government
that you are more than willing to make your children (if you have any) into the next victim.

At least we know we're being conned. Did you catch on too late?
SF wrote:
Perhaps you could prove your worth in this department by performing a far more simple and much closer test of your powers to accurately predict the future like giving me the next Powerball lottery numbers once it goes over $100 million? If you can predict complicated events forty years down the road, something in a few days or weeks should be childs play for such a seer.
Quote:
This is actually quite humorous. I've studied negotiations in the course of studying law and when people don't have a case they start to minimize and exaggerate. Your last three paragraphs are almost a textbook example of this.


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Dindraug
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Posted: Tue 10 Jan , 2006 8:33 am
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:

Do you realize that from my point of view, I will be paying into SS for 40 years without getting any return at all? That's why it makes no utilitarian difference in the benefits to me whether or not they exist.

In 40 years, I won't be receiving SS, whether or not it exists. No Gen-Xer will be receiving SS in 40 years, whether or not it exists.

So the only question for us is should we pay for nothing, or should we not pay for nothing.

You want those currently working to pay for your retirement. That makes you an enemy of the working man.
And its a global thing, based on actuarial quote that are themselves based on speculation of who may survive to pensionable age. Speaking as somebody who works in the pensions industry (albeit in the UK where we had some slight security) the whole western world's retirement planning is corrupting faster than a dead dog in the sun.

the good news is that the issue promoting teh inbalance, the survivalablity of the baby boom generations is going to decrease in the next fifty or so years as poor diet and lack of exercise cull those who expected to live to a ripe old age and get pensions.

The bad news is that the cost of trying to keep the unhealthy alive is spirelling out of control so the surplus that could be used to pay the state benefits (in what ever country) are being eaten up (literally) as the modern generation turns into fat useless lumps siting before PC's and TV munching burgers.

The other bad news is that the actuaries will not take into account the downwardly moblie life expectency that will happen in a few years time, so the costs are still forced on pensions schemes and state based pensions, so those running pensions schemes and companies and states with pensions see it as a bottomless hole.

The next bit of bad news is that pensions cost something like 50-80% of your salary in real terms. Get rid of that for either state or company and you make a hell of a saving.

Sorry, just wanted to put this into perspective a bit. One of the issues in pensions is that people see it as very private, more so than health or relationship issues. and people are really not aware of who big a thing it is. My tip, statr saving elsewear.

Better go, I have to go set up pensions for people who will get ten times what I will get at retirement and still whinge about it.

:(


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sauronsfinger
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Not one American who lived to the age of collection has been conned our of a single penny in the SS fund. Not a single one.

If someone believes they can hinge their arguement on a prediction forty years into the future, I darn well want to see proof of their abilitiies to predict the future. But lets begin with something current and simple to test like a few simple lottery numbers.

I knew you would not take the challenge. Anyone can make absurd predictions far into the future without fear of having to be called to task when they fail to come true. That is the dishonest tactic in this debate.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Dindraug
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Posted: Tue 10 Jan , 2006 1:52 pm
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And how would anybody do that? Unless we can say 'look back in this thread on December 12 2041 and ### will be true', will be a long wait for a counter argument.

And worth pointing out that unless you can also predict the future, you can't counter point the argument either.

Your own argument falls a bit flat there :damnfunny:


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Tue 10 Jan , 2006 2:25 pm
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Dindraug
here is what CG alleged
Quote:
Do you realize that from my point of view, I will be paying into SS for 40 years without getting any return at all?
CG does not say that he will not get all his money. He does not say that he will not get most of his money. He says flat out that he will not get "any return at all".

As a person in the profession, you certainly must realize that not a single professional actuarial is painting the same picture that CG is with that statement. I have read the reports on the future of Social Security in the USA. Nothing in that report indicates that the system will NOT be there in FORTY years to return nothing to current people who pay in.

Some say there will be some problems in the decade of the 2040's causing a shortfall IF benefits continue to rise without raising contributions. Others postpone that a decade or two past that. I have seen not a single professional actuarial who is making the claim that CG is that there will be no SS giving people nothing.

He differs with every expert in the field.

As such, I want to know how he can look into the distant future and come up with a radical conclusion that is at serious odds with professionals in the field.

The burden of proof is indeed upon CG here.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Why do we do anything for the future then? Why do we build schools, pay for care of the elderly, build houses, roads, bridges that will last longer than the next 10 or 15 years? We could save the money and let the next generation deal with the problem as best they can. As the joke goes, 'After all, what has posterity ever done for me?' Living a communal life with our fellows implies some form of trust in and foresight for the future. We benefit daily from the results of the benevolence of the past. To renege on that trust smacks somewhat of selfish theft as if one is saying 'I won't pay for anyone's future, I'm having my share now, despite having someone else's share from the past.'

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