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Muslim cartoon protests: has freedom of speech gone too far?

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Leoba
Post subject: Muslim cartoon protests: has freedom of speech gone too far?
Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 8:26 am
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Has anyone else been following the furore over the publication of 12 cartoons showing the prophet Muhammad, in a Danish newspaper? I'm amazed to not be able to find any discussion of it here yet!


First of all: does anyone know where I can find copies of these pictures online? I resent feeling dragged into a debate over something our media refuses to publish. Should the British media be publishing them in full, to illustrate the catalyst for the dispute? Or would that be in unbelievable poor taste, knowing the reaction it would provoke?

Secondly: should secular societies satirise religion? And does that right outweigh the rights of Muslims/Jews/Christians to practice their faith in peace, without being insulted? Does it really - as one guy argued on 'Newsnight' last night - show that European society is uncivilised and lacking in respect for our fellow human beings?

Discuss. ;)
Quote:
from the BBC

Newspapers across Europe have reprinted caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad to show support for a Danish paper whose cartoons have sparked Muslim outrage.

Seven publications in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and Spain all carried some of the drawings.

Their publication in Denmark led Arab nations to protest. Islamic tradition bans depictions of the Prophet.

The owner of one of the papers to reprint - France Soir - has now sacked its managing editor over the matter.

The cartoons have sparked diplomatic sanctions and death threats in some Arab nations, while media watchdogs have defended publication of the images in the name of press freedom.

Reporters Without Borders said the reaction in the Arab world "betrays a lack of understanding" of press freedom as "an essential accomplishment of democracy."

'Spiting Muslims'

France Soir and Germany's Die Welt were among the leading papers to reprint the cartoons, which first appeared in Denmark last September.

The caricatures include drawings of Muhammad wearing a headdress shaped like a bomb, while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers.

France Soir originally said it had published the images in full to show "religious dogma" had no place in a secular society.

But late on Wednesday its owner, Raymond Lakah, said he had removed managing editor Jacques Lefranc "as a powerful sign of respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual".

Mr Lakah said: "We express our regrets to the Muslim community and all people who were shocked by the publication."

The president of the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM), Dalil Boubakeur, had described France Soir's publication as an act of "real provocation towards the millions of Muslims living in France".

Other papers stood by their publication. In Berlin, Die Welt argued there was a right to blaspheme in the West, and asked whether Islam was capable of coping with satire.

"The protests from Muslims would be taken more seriously if they were less hypocritical," it wrote in an editorial.

La Stampa in Italy, El Periodico in Spain and Dutch paper Volkskrant also carried some of the drawings.

European Muslims spoke out against the pictures.

In Germany, the vice-chairman of the central council of Muslims said Muslims would be deeply offended.

"It was done not to defend freedom of the press, but to spite the Muslims," Mohammad Aman Hobohm said.

Sanctions

Correspondents say the European papers' actions have widened a dispute which has grown very serious for Denmark.

The publication last September in Jyllands-Posten has provoked diplomatic sanctions and threats from Islamic militants across the Muslim world.

Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller has postponed a trip to Africa because of the dispute.

Thousands of Palestinians protested against Denmark this week, and Arab ministers called on it to punish Jyllands-Posten.

Syria and Saudi Arabia have recalled their ambassadors to Denmark, while Libya said it was closing its embassy in Copenhagen and Iraq summoned the Danish envoy to condemn the cartoons.

The Danish-Swedish dairy giant Arla Foods says its sales in the Middle East have plummeted to zero as a result of the row, which sparked a boycott of Danish products across the region.

The offices of Jyllands-Posten had to be evacuated on Tuesday because of a bomb threat.

The paper had apologised a day earlier for causing offence to Muslims, although it maintained it was legal under Danish law to print them.

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen welcomed the paper's apology, but defended the freedom of the press.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4670370.stm

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 9:22 am
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I've been arguing this pretty closely on Manwe, but I'll get into here, too.

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Secondly: should secular societies have the right to satirise religion?
Since I don't agree with censorship, yes. Everyone has the right to satirize anything, but have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Freedom from offense is not a right.
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And does that right outweigh the rights of Muslims/Jews/Christians to practice their faith in peace?
I'm not sure I'd agree that muslims have had any rights trampled. This world is not free from offense. The pictures in my view are not that offensive, except for the one of muhammad with a bomb in his turban. That one is outright offensive.

The offense comes from a religious law in islam that deems any imagery of the prophet is offensive because it can lead to idolatry, and the punishment for this offense is death. One reason the Danish magazine is claiming it posted the pictures is to open up debate about this dangerous mindset in islam. Is it free-expression gone awry or questioning the ability of our two society's to co-exist? A poster over in Manwe characterized the issue as a clash between pre-Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment societies.

The problem I have mostly is with the muslim reaction to the cartoons. Death threats are not a civil reaction, while the boycotts and protests are.
Quote:
Does it really - as one guy argued on 'Newsnight' last night - show that European society is uncivilised and lacking in respect for our fellow human beings?
Which society is issuing the death threats again?

One question that comes to mind is the power influence of a religious culture over a secular culture... cultures that exist in largely different countries. Which is better, respect an uncivil belief (death threats for pictures) or suppression of liberties (freedom of the press)?

To end this... any ideology that can't take the piss out of itself, needs an adjustment.

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Pippin4242
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 10:53 am
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I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this whole thing... obviously the cartoons were insensitive, but death threats are also obviously not the way to go. I'm all for free speech. It would be nice if people chose not to make cartoons of Mohammed (pbuh) I guess...

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Dindraug
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 1:05 pm
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Quote:
To end this... any ideology that can't take the piss out of itself, needs an adjustment.
Absolutely.

As for insensitive, what is more offensive Pictures or innocent people being blown up on buses?

Every other religion can cope with unbelivers taking the piss out of them. Look at 'Life of Brian', look at Halloween (festival, not film).

Or should we ban Ramadam because fasting during the day and eating during the night could be seen as deeply offensive to the starving of the third world who have to 'fast' the whole day.

Sorry, will defend even Satans freedom of speech. Because I do not agree with it does not make it wrong.


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 1:59 pm
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Was gonna post but I don't need to since TED said what I was gonna. Especially this:
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Everyone has the right to satirize anything, but have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Freedom from offense is not a right.
Damn right.


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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 2:07 pm
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Someone once said that you should respect another man's religious beliefs in the same way you respect his belief that his children are the smartest, cutest kids ever born. You just smile and nod, as long as he isn't obnoxious about it. The reaction from the Muslim world in this case goes far beyond obnoxious. I'm proud of the Danes for having the guts to go through with it, and of the other European nations who backed them up.
Quote:
Secondly: should secular societies satirise religion? And does that right outweigh the rights of Muslims/Jews/Christians to practice their faith in peace, without being insulted?
Absolutely. Religions have the right not to be persecuted, but they don't have the right not to be insulted. A lot of beliefs are foolish and harmful. Such beliefs should not get a free pass just because they call themselves religion.


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Di of Long Cleeve
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 2:21 pm
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Freedom from offense is not a right.
I agree.

But just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

Just sayin'. ;)

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 3:04 pm
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Poking fun at religions should always be allowed. Thanks for the links, TED. :LMAO:


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 4:16 pm
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oh heaven forbid....

And they never make fun of our religions, ever. They never insult our way of life, ever.

Maybe the cartoonists should simply take an Iranian flag and burn it on the streets, taking a picture and publish it. Then maybe the cartoonist can make a tape and release it to the media that insults the entire culture.

And how many Pope jokes are out there? How many Rabbi Jokes? How many Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, and Mormon Jokes are out there? How many cartoons have made fun of western religions?

Freedom of speech is the right that protects Freedom of Religion. If Freedom of speech goes away, how can one pray?

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 5:13 pm
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Agreed. Calling a belief a religious belief shouldn't insulate it from criticism - humorous or otherwise.

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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 6:17 pm
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Freedom of speech hasn't gone too far. People have gone too far. There's such a thing as being tasteful and distasteful in your right to free speech.

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10FTTALL
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 6:40 pm
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This is a good issue to watch the reaction of various people. Anyone you see really defending the actions of the violent mobs, you pretty much want to stay away from.

One of my favorite lines on this is in Manwe by IamMoose:
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Perhaps they have a warehouse somewhere with at least one of every flag in the world, just in case..

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 7:08 pm
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Quote:
But just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you SHOULD.
I agree, but I still defend the Danes right to do so, and the right of the other European papers to join.

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Meneltarma
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 7:53 pm
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Dindraug wrote:
As for insensitive, what is more offensive Pictures or innocent people being blown up on buses?

.
:neutral: I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I know you're not suggesting that every muslim protesting against those cartoons supports blowing up innocent people, since I have rather a high opinion of you. Are you trying to point out that the community was much less vocal about the (infinitely more serious) terrorist attacks?



However. While those cartoons sicken me (and I'm not a muslim) , I don't believe they should be censored.


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 8:01 pm
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Quote:
Are you trying to point out that the community was much less vocal about the (infinitely more serious) terrorist attacks?
Is that true? (I have no idea.)


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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 8:15 pm
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Censored- but by whom? I'd respect a newspaper that didn't see it fit to print something like that. I mean what kind of censorship do we really have in today's world...anything you can't see printed in one paper, you're told about in another paper, or on the internet. Why shouldn't a newspaper be able to say 'We think this is immoral and offensive and we don't want to popularise it'?

And I hope I'm wrong but reading this thread, it sounds a bit like the reaction here is 'Well, the extremists are making death threats, so that means it was okay to publish those cartoons, because their reaction to them is over the top.' Backwards... it doesn't matter how Muslims react (and Melly makes a very good point that not all Muslims are terrorists- see how these cartoons have already brought out the worst stereotypes? Not all Muslims are getting ready to nuke Holland for this, some are just quietly hurt. They're the ones that matter, folks.).

As I already told someone on the subject, I can take a joke about my religion. I can also take a joke about people who claim to follow my religion, but are actually hypocrites- tell me a funny one about rapist priests, I'll cringe but laugh bitterly. Draw me a cartoon of Jesus fucking a schoolgirl, I will be very much disgusted. Can you see the difference?

The problem with a joke is it can convey the wrong message. I'm not really sure whether this cartoon is saying 'Muslims are all terrorists, and Mohammad approves' or if it's trying to be ironic. That's why I think it crosses the line. And if people refuse to publish it, it shows they have class.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 8:33 pm
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It's not as though the law against portraying the prophet was dreamed up after the cartoons, and that, from what I gathered in another thread, was one reason that the Danish newspaper posted the cartoons. Cartoon four shows a guy hiding his drawing of muhammad. That says to me that they commenting on the law of drawing muhammad.

I wasn't saying that because of the muslim reaction the Danish newspaper had a right to publish the cartoons. I think they had a right to begin with. Was it nice? No. Could they have self-censored and been sensitive? Yes. Do they have to? No. They exercised their rights of free speech to publish cartoons they thought were avant garde, making a statement, would inflame islam, etc., etc.

Melly is right. Not all muslims are terrorists. No one has said that, but the reactions sure have been extreme. Here is a perfectly acceptable reaction to any offense.

I suggest everyone go to Manwe and on the 2nd page of the Cartoon death threat topic, read Democritus' description of what he saw at the protest of the Danish embassy in London. I won't repost it because they aren't my words to repost, but I will say that some of the signs he noted made me think twice (e.g. Europe will pay, 3/11 is on its way).

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 8:58 pm
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Oh, sure the newspaper had a right...if that's what we're discussing I didn't realise it, sorry. I thought we were talking about whether the cartoon is just a harmless joke that Muslims should shrug at, or an insult, and perhaps even a veiled rally against the Muslim faith based on stereotypes. I think it was the latter, and the intent was provocation. To me those cartoons are just crude, like a dick joke...don't see the funny part. So Islam forbids the portrayal of Mohammad...okay? Where's the funny? And Mohammad is shown as a murderer...hmmm yes, hilarious. What exactly is being laughed at here? Maybe the reaction of the extremists is what's supposed to be the punchline.

But then, if this is an example of Europe showing its tolerance and understanding for those who don't support terrorism as a manifestation of their faith...

I am trying to put myself in their place, and thinking of all the times a joke about Christians has hurt me. Having met my share of pseudo-Christian assholes, I'm not nearly as sensitive to those as I should be, but it is easy to get carried away with the jokes and forsake all the really nice Christians in the process. It doesn't always happen. Most of the time the jokes have a rather clear subcontext of mocking hypocrites and assholes, not a religion as a whole. I fail to see that in these cartoons.

Not sure I'm explaining myself properly at all here.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 9:03 pm
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Rodia wrote:
So Islam forbids the portrayal of Mohammad...okay?
The punishment for portrayal of muhammad is death. That's different then it just being frowned upon or generally disliked.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 9:04 pm
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I agree, Ro, that the cartoons seem like cheap flamebait. Particularly the first two TED, linked to.


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