board77

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I just don't completely rule it out yet, that is all..

You may begin ruling it out.....

Islamic scholar who disseminated cartoons of Prophet speaks out

Deplorable. All this for an apology? False caricatures for an apology? Petty.

TED
NPR had a story on this yesterday explaining how this cleric and others used the cartoons for their own private purposes. The entire time they knew what they were doing and they helped create a firestorm by distributing lots of gasoline and matches to the crowd.

I agree with your use of the word PETTY ... and would add a few more like DISGUSTING and LOATHSOME.

TED - I looked at the timeline at your link, and wondered if there was anything more substantial on this entry:

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November-December 2005:
Danish Muslims travel throughout the Middle East to tell people about the cartoons and call for protest. They carry with them not only the published cartoons, but also a few others – even more offensive – that were sent to them by private Danish citizens.

Did they really mean "private Danish citizens", or is that a mistake?

vison wrote:

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

It is a cultural divide. Their religious culture versus our liberty culture. They hold their prophet above all and we hold our liberties above all. The only way to find a compromise on this issue is if each culture gives up a little. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up any liberties for anything.

You don't have to give up any liberties for anyone or anything.

The issue is not "their religious culture" against "our liberty culture". The issue is, "they" are wrong and that's that. If they don't like it, tough.

Sometimes lines must be drawn in the sand and this is one of those times.
Would anyone suggest NOW that some horrible tyrannical regime in the past that went arounding invading its hapless neighbours should have been coddled and cosseted because they had a "culture" that thought it should be okay?

Uh uh. Draw the line and stick to it. Sooner or later it will come to that and the sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

There is going to be a Revolution. Which kind do you want?

And now, from the divine to the ridiculous, Muslims in the UK have actually succeeded in getting a ban on items depicting pigs (Piggy banks, Piglet) AND the English flag (cross of St. George)! How many MORE bits of our culture will we be willing to give up before we wake up and see what's going on? (I speak as a colonial here. Several of our Canadian provincial flags still have the Union Jack in the corner!)

Links:

http://lostbudgie.blogspot.com/2005/10/ ... ed-in.html

http://lostbudgie.blogspot.com/2005/10/ ... fends.html


I heard this from the pulpit, many, many years ago, from someone who travelled the world as a missionary: "Due to imigration, Islam is the fastest growing religion here in Canada....If you think you will have any religious freedom in a country dominated by Muslims....THINK AGAIN!"

I know this sounds horribly un-PC. I don't care. I am normally the most tolerant of people. In the past, I have dated men from other cultures, races and religions, and found something to value and respect in all of them. But the brand of militant Islam that is trying to take power today, and in many cases, has succeeded, is a threat to world peace and stability the likes of which has not been seen since the days of Hitler and Lebensraum.

Here's a list of other things the Muslims consider unclean, and to be avoided:

(i) Urine
(ii) Faeces
(iii) Semen
(iv) Dead body
(v) Blood
(vi) Dog
(vii) Pig
(viii) Infidel
(ix) Wine
(x) Barley wine (Beer).


Infidel? That's us, folks. (Well, most of us...) Everyone who does not believe in Allah.

Here's an example of the sort of freedom Westerners have in a MODERATE Islamic country (Saudi Arabia). During the '70's one of my husband's friends travelled to S.A. to work as an engineer. He and his wife and two teenage daughters lived in a compound reserved for foreigners. Within the compound, they were pretty much free to do as they wished. The authorities even overlooked the drinking of alcohol, as long as it was done discretely. (Alcohol is illegal in most Islamic countries...see list, above.)

One day, his two daughters decided to go out on the town, dressed in Western clothing. It was a hot day, and they chose to wear shorts and t-shirts. They had been warned by their parents about Saudi standards of dress and conduct, but, well, you know teenagers!

They hadn't gone very far when one of the local imans spotted them. (I hope that's the right word. These men are stationed around the city, and their job is to make sure everyone comforms to Muslim law re. dress codes, women being accompanied in public by a male relative, etc.) The man took his bamboo cane, and started to beat the girls across their bare legs. He chased them all the way back to the foreigner's compound. They arrived home bruised, bloody and weeping.

Contrast that with (most) Western nations, where foreigners and new immigrants are allowed to wear whatever they want (turbans, saris, hajib, kilts, sarongs)!!

Sunsilver wrote:

Here's an example of the sort of freedom Westerners have in a MODERATE Islamic country (Saudi Arabia).

To be fair, Saudi Arabia is fairly extreme, being the only surviving predominantly Wahabist country since the fall of the Taliban. Still, I don't doubt that we'd be in trouble if people like that got into power in our own countries.

I stand corrected, LM. But most Westerners think of it as being moderate, because they are friendly with the west, and welcome workers from the west, and other foreign countries.

That is true, but I tend to think that Arabia’s pro-western stance is based in purely practical considerations. The Saudi Government is smart enough to figure out that raging about the evils of the west will only make their lives difficult, and there are times where being close to America has some distinct advantages (such as when Saddam Hussein’s million-man army is sitting on your doorstep, as was the case in 1991). Naturally, a friendly (even if for mercenary reasons) Saudi Arabia is better than a belligerent one, but it still needs an eye kept on it.

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But the brand of militant Islam that is trying to take power today, and in many cases, has succeeded, is a threat to world peace and stability the likes of which has not been seen since the days of Hitler and Lebensraum.

I never thought I'd have to read Bushisms here (other than from hal maybe). You need to stop listening to Dumbya and his lackeys, and realise why a militant Islam has expanded over recent years.

I tend to think that this is the worst threat we’ve seen to world peace, freedom and security since the U.S.S.R fell, but that’s bye-the-bye. What we do agree on, in general, is that Islamic Fundamentalism is very bad.

Iavas wrote:

You need to stop listening to Dumbya and his lackeys, and realise why a militant Islam has expanded over recent years.

It’s an interesting exercise, but it’s more important that we figure out now how to stop it.

This whole cartoon affair has been very significant. People are putting aside political correctness and now asking some deep questions about Islam in general. I think it’s important that we do this, and I think that we can do it without stereotyping, generalizing or being intolerant or offensive.

The causes of islamism aren't as important as to the solutions to combat it and stop its spread in poor islamic nations.

Iavas, the article says 'private Danish citizens' so I assume it means private Danish citizens. I can't tell you beyond that.

Sunny... those links make me sad.

Iavas_Saar wrote:

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But the brand of militant Islam that is trying to take power today, and in many cases, has succeeded, is a threat to world peace and stability the likes of which has not been seen since the days of Hitler and Lebensraum.

I never thought I'd have to read Bushisms here (other than from hal maybe). You need to stop listening to Dumbya and his lackeys, and realise why a militant Islam has expanded over recent years.

Being Canadian, I have NOT been listening to Bush, Iavas. I've only been observing what's going on in the world. My views may be somewhat biased as my main source of info is the western press, but I DO have friends who have had firsthand experience with Muslim countries.

I find your response offensive. Perhaps I could have worded the above better, with less hyperbole, but I stand by my opinion. If I can be forgiven for mentioning Hitler again, there were very good reasons why Hitler was able to rise to power in Germany. The country had been rendered nearly bankrupt by the Great Depression and the reparations demanded by the Allies for W.W.I. Not many people are willing to see that as an excuse for what happened, however. And in the poor African nations, it's not the Muslims who are poor. They have the land and the money, and are using the other tribes/peoples who live there as slaves. Yes, I know it sounds like I'm going over the top here with anti-Muslim sentiment. I'm not, I'm merely stating facts. I have read many, many books, first-hand personal stories and newspaper articles about this.

LM, yes, I know Saudi Arabia's friendliness to the west is largely politically motivated, and underneath that friendliness is a definite current of strong anti-Western feeling. This WAS the country that birthed Bin Laden, after all!

I will say sadly I do not think Soudi Arabia is moderate all. The exact opposite really. I have never thought they were moderate actually. How many 9/11 hijackers came from there? Somethieng is very very wrong there. The royal family has a very close relationship with the U.S. I have felt there is a scratch my back, I scratch your back sort of arrangement there.

Yes, bin Laden is a Saudi. HE thinks the Saud family (the royal family) is hopelessly corrupt and irreligious and he would like them all dead like dogs in the street. They return the favour.

He's right, of course. Few more corrupt people than the Sauds can be found in any era in any country. They are Kings there because it suited/suits the British and the Americans. What goes around, comes around.

At this present moment there is an extreme paranoia about "Islamism". I think that while it has certain dangers to us, the West, there is a great deal of over-reaction just now, which suits the dangerous Islamists. A vicious circle.

Okay, I'm going to keep out of this, as I'm just too at odds with everyone on what nations constitute the biggest threat to world peace.

Sunsilver, apologies for the insulting tone.

Iavas_Saar wrote:

Okay, I'm going to keep out of this, as I'm just too at odds with everyone on what nations constitute the biggest threat to world peace.

Sunsilver, apologies for the insulting tone.

Thank you. Apology accepted.

Iavas, I am aware that U.S. sabre-rattling is also contributing to the problem (best example being the non-existent WMD in Iraq.) But it takes two to pick a fight, and.... may I also point out... the current uproar has nothing to do with the United States.

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the current uproar has nothing to do with the United States.

Actually, I think it has a lot to do with the US (their actions over the last few years). They have created the climate where this sort of thing is more liable to get out of hand.

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Actually, I think it has a lot to do with the US (their actions over the last few years). They have created the climate where this sort of thing is more liable to get out of hand.

This needs some explanation.

Saudi Arabia would be a radical Islamic state in an instant if the House of Saud fell. They're very unpopular in their own country, and it's only Western support that's keeping them in power.

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

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Actually, I think it has a lot to do with the US (their actions over the last few years). They have created the climate where this sort of thing is more liable to get out of hand.

This needs some explanation.

Especially since Europe is so friendly to Islam that Turkey is being welcomed into the EU with open arms, Muslim youth feel completely integrated into society and that's why they exist so peacefully with their white neighbors, and everyone jumped to the aid of the Bosnian Muslims back in the 1990s.

The fingers get pointed everywhere once the blame game begins.

Iavas_Saar wrote:

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the current uproar has nothing to do with the United States.

Actually, I think it has a lot to do with the US (their actions over the last few years). They have created the climate where this sort of thing is more liable to get out of hand.

Not totally true. The rise of the Isalmic militant can be seen as far back as 1948 when Israel was founded. The local muslim population have been fighting this since then, and because they do not have to deal with the implications of the Holocaust and blame, they have been able to get quite vicious.

The kick start to this was 1979-80 when Khomayne (not sure of spelling) over threw the Shar of Iran. Suddenly there was a strong and relitivly advanced (technologically) Islamic nation. This all happened during the cold war when American and Rusian eyes were firmly linked on each others jugulars.

You can't blame America for this, or Bush (senior or junior). It goes much further back.