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The belief game

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: The belief game
Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 9:35 am
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Here is how the game works:

Two issues will be placed against each other. One issue wins, the other loses. You chose which issue to win on and the other issue loses, no complaints. You define the winning conditions.

Two rules of the game- 1. do not bludgeon anyone for their view and 2. after the first two issues have been discussed either to everyone's satisfaction or nausea, two more issues are chosen... both have to have high stakes for winning or losing.


Round 1:

Abortion or gay marriage?

You tell us which issue should win, and hopefully expand on your view so we know what you're thinking. (Example: If you are pro-choice and want abortion to never be banned for any reason, then gay marriage is automatically banned. If you want to ban abortion, then gay marriages for all who want them.)





Enjoy and remember this is only a game. No issues will actually be harmed in the playing of this game.

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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 9:54 am
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Abortion. The consequences of it being illegal or legal are greater than those for gay marriage.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 9:56 am
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I'm not sure if the choice for gay people to marry is more important than the choice for a woman to keep her baby or not, but when lives are at stake, I'll have to go with banning abortion. There are a lot of loving gay couples who would be happy to welcome those unaborted children into their homes. I'd rest easier knowing this is what happened.

(Note: not that all babies up for adoption went to gay couples, just that they went somewhere other than death.) :)




*E*

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Pippin4242
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 11:00 am
Hasta la victoria, siempre
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I'd go with abortion being the more important one... you can have a sort-of-marriage, but not a sort-of-abortion. I mean, nobody's stopping gay people just living together and being married in all but name. But making somebody have a baby could really fuck up their life. So even though gay rights are a big issue to me, I'd have to go with getting my way over abortion.

*~Pips~*

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 2:26 pm
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Abortion wins by a landslide. A literal life-or-death issue that potentially affects half the world's population (and impacts the other half). No contest.


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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 3:46 pm
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In terms of relative IMPACT, I would need to choose keeping abortions legal up until at least the first trimester, and then for medical reasons thereafter. It is not so much that I am in favor of abortion, in an ideal world we would practice safe sex and birth control methods that would more or less make abortion unneccesary. I also do not believe legally that one can legislate "human personhood" onto a fetus that is not viable - life may begin at conception, but personhood does not truly arrive until that being can survive more or less without another human body to keep it alive. Otherwise, in the true biological sense, it is a parasite (I know, poor choice of terms there, I simply cannot find a word to convey exactly what I intend.)

While under the constraints of this argument, that means gay marriage would be illegal, I also would want that qualified - I am guessing that TED means then that civil unions would also be illegal. Ironically, this is the area where I feel societal mores or religious traditions have severely overstepped their bounds in free and democratic societies - gay marriage is nothing more than the same extension of civil rights and advantages given to married heterosexual partners, where, ironically enough, those rights do not go away even if one partner later chooses the opposite gender role. I CAN make the argument that abortion is unethical even though that is not my personal belief - I am more or less neutral on it and consider it a sort of necessary unpleasantness, in other words, that the mother in this case does have rights that supercede those of her fetus in most instances. I can fully understand why people are opposed to abortion from their own principles. I fail to see the same sorts of ethical considerations applying to a ban on gay marriage. It is however, of a lesser impact overall.

I would add an interesting twist here to TED's question:

Let us SAY that medically, women who opt for abortions could instead have the embryos or fetuses successfully transplanted into willing women to carry the baby to term - a sort of "what if" situation. I opt to terminate my pregnacy at 8 weeks, but medical science somehow could take that fetus and implant it into another woman, who is willing to act as a surrogate for that baby.

If such medical procedures were possible, should they be mandated? Is preserving the viability of life that important? What are the rights of the persons involved - me, the surrogate mom, the biological father, and the eventual newborn? Who covers the medical costs of carrying the baby? Who has dibs on keeping the baby or deciding its fate of where it goes to live? What if the baby is not born perfect, but has serious defects of one form or another. What if I actively smoked, drank, or used drugs before I gave up my fetus, or if I was HIV positive?


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 3:50 pm
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Well, let's see. My position on abortion is that it should be decided by the states instead of the federal. My position on marriage (gay or otherwise) is that the government has no role in the affiars of consenting adults.

That really is a tough one, but I think I'd pick losing on abortion because deciding on the federal level instead of the state level still leaves open the option of right side winning on the wrong level instead of the right level.


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Riverthalos
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 3:59 pm
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I'd keep abortion legal. Otherwise we'll be back to the days of coat-hangers, turpentine, and backstreet butchers.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 4:33 pm
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Or short trips to Canada.


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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 5:03 pm
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I don't like this game. Where's the option that says both win? Or both lose?

But I'll play along. I say abortion wins. Forcing someone to do *something, anything* that they don't want to, especially when it hurts them and possibly *other* people, is wrong.

Same-sex marriage can wait at least. Nothing is stopping two people from living together and loving eachother. And that's what it's *really* about, right? Don't need legal proof of your commitment. I realize there are certain benefits being denied by not being *legally* married, and I'm not sure what to say about that.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 5:58 pm
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Onizuka Eikichi wrote:
I don't like this game. Where's the option that says both win? Or both lose?
Isn't that too easy? :P This way requires us to pick one. Sometimes it's more interesting to debate yourself; to give yourself a mental/moral challenge.




*E*

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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 6:15 pm
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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R* wrote:
Onizuka Eikichi wrote:
I don't like this game. Where's the option that says both win? Or both lose?
Isn't that too easy? :P This way requires us to pick one. Sometimes it's more interesting to debate yourself; to give yourself a mental/moral challenge.




*E*
As SF would say, "In the real world, both can win or both can lose. Therefore this entire discussion is based on a false premise." :p

I made my choice nonetheless, however. Of the two, *if* only one could win, I would side with abortion.

One can do "what-ifs" for eternity. :)

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 03 Feb , 2006 7:28 pm
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Poo-poo for SF then. I want this decision to be difficult for people. Do you want a disclaimer that this game does not reflect the real world?

I thought about it last night. I'd pick gay marriage to win. The gay marriage could bring us closer to a more equal society without potential second-class citizens. I don't think democracies should have second-class citizens ever.

With abortion, there are ways around abortion. Adoption is an available option and there are plenty of different contraception methods to choose from. Obviously, these are not going to work in all instances, and I know about those times where the pregnancy is dangerous to the mother, but I think those instances are far fewer than the number of people who might like to get married and receive the same rights as their sexual counter-parts.


*****

To answer TW's questions....
Quote:
If such medical procedures were possible, should they be mandated? Is preserving the viability of life that important? What are the rights of the persons involved - me, the surrogate mom, the biological father, and the eventual newborn? Who covers the medical costs of carrying the baby? Who has dibs on keeping the baby or deciding its fate of where it goes to live? What if the baby is not born perfect, but has serious defects of one form or another. What if I actively smoked, drank, or used drugs before I gave up my fetus, or if I was HIV positive?
I don't think any medical procedure should be mandated, but if this option was available I would hope it wouldn't be one of those kinds of procedures only the rich can afford.

Only if you view life as the most important.

I'd say the surrogate gets all the rights if she has to carry the fetus to term from a mother who doesn't want a baby. Possession is 9/10ths of law kind of thing. If this procedure is instead of abortion (meaning the current mom doesn't want the fetus), then the current mom should have no legal say in where the baby lives or schools or plays baseball. I don't think bringing an HIV infected baby into this world is fair to the baby. There is a reason why we sometimes put animals out of their misery.

I hope this doesn't turn the discussion *only* into an abortion debate, but I thought it nice to answer Watcher's questions.

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Sidonzo
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Posted: Sun 12 Feb , 2006 5:06 am
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OK TED...where is the next set? :P


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Sun 12 Feb , 2006 3:20 pm
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Just want it on record that I have not given any opinion on this question but find myself being used in support of one idea and being dismissed for it. Very weird indeed.

from Onizuka
Quote:
As SF would say, "In the real world, both can win or both can lose. Therefore this entire discussion is based on a false premise."
and from TED
Quote:
Poo-poo for SF then.
:help: :scratch: :Q

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yovargas
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Posted: Sun 12 Feb , 2006 3:25 pm
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Next matchup:

Gun rights vs Drug legalization


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Sun 12 Feb , 2006 6:03 pm
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I guess I just do not get this entire process.

Seems like I am being asked if I would rather have my eyes eaten out by a wolverine or my testicles chewed off my a large rat.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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yovargas
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Posted: Sun 12 Feb , 2006 6:52 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
I guess I just do not get this entire process.

Seems like I am being asked if I would rather have my eyes eaten out by a wolverine or my testicles chewed off my a large rat.
All you're being asked is which issue do you think is more important enough to sacrifice in other areas for. I would heartily sacrifice to my opponents on gay marriage if it meant mainting abortions as legal.


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sauronsfinger
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Posted: Sun 12 Feb , 2006 7:32 pm
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and if I like nothing of my choices?

gun rights --- ugggh

legalized drugs --- ugggh

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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elfshadow
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Posted: Sun 12 Feb , 2006 7:55 pm
Kill the headlights and put it in neutral
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Quote:
Seems like I am being asked if I would rather have my eyes eaten out by a wolverine or my testicles chewed off my a large rat.
Keep your sight. Lose the balls. :P

As far as gun rights vs. drug legalization goes...I'm not really sure if I can say one wins for sure and one loses for sure. I don't want guns to be banned, but I don't want anyone to be able to own a gun. I don't want drugs to be completely legalized, but I don't want them all to be illegal no matter what. It's a real sticky wicket. But if I had to choose what I believe is the more important issue I'd choose guns.


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