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The belief game

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Wed 23 Aug , 2006 2:50 pm
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Hm. Tough one.

I'm not against the death penalty, although I feel we should moratorium it for a while until the bugs are worked out (and prosecutors who conceal information are sentenced to the death penalty). I have no problem with the death penalty being applied to the guilty, but the problem is with the current court system we do not know that only the guilty are being executed.

On the other hand, I cannot countenance the teaching of lies.

I assume, by "teaching creationism" you do not mean teaching what a theory is and why creationism doesn't fit the definition. You will be doing great harm to those students subjected to the teaching. That harm will be corrected by any who decide to go into the sciences later, as graduating from Pre-Med without understanding evolution is impossible. Teaching creationism in the science class is morally wrong.

On the bad knowledge vs. blissful ignorance question, I came down on the side of "it's better to know" without a single qualm. Truth is very important to me.

This one is difficult. Knowingly lie to an entire generation or possibly have an innocent person executed for someone else's crimes.

I'll have to get back to you on this one.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Dindraug
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Posted: Wed 23 Aug , 2006 7:20 pm
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Although reading what TED was asking, it reads as should we teach Creationism or the death sentence!

For my own part, I would find teaching about the death penalty useful; the morality the ethics and the reality of the idea as well as the practice.

After all, historically it is vital. Ask any Christian what is the important factor of Christs life and its his death. If he had been told off and given an ASBO would we have worried about salvation he offered for the past 2000 or so years.

Creationism is just hokum; ok its as valid as the study of any belief system, but it should not be taken anymore seriously than say Shamanism, Buddism, Catholisism or any other faith.


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halplm
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Posted: Wed 23 Aug , 2006 7:26 pm
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I think you'll find many that take their faith VERY seriously...

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The OG Borry
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Posted: Wed 23 Aug , 2006 8:30 pm
The best things in life are not things
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id never of guessed that people take religion seriously ;)
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TheMary
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Posted: Wed 23 Aug , 2006 11:05 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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I certainly don't take my church seriously :blackeye:

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The OG Borry
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Posted: Thu 24 Aug , 2006 12:32 am
The best things in life are not things
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i dont take my church, or anyone elses for that matter, anywhere as they are quite heavy and large.
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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 24 Aug , 2006 4:47 am
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Did it read like that, Din? I wrote it thinking teach Creationism or allow the death penalty. But I am not trying to tell people how to play this game.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 24 Aug , 2006 7:30 am
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Don't worry TED, I am just pulling your leg a bit. It was a little ambigious, but like all good message-board officianardo's I can twist any sentence to say what I want it to and argue blue is black that it was the orgional writer meant :D

My point about taking things seriously is that for the believers, it is serious, for those outside, it is not. And never the twain shall meet. But in context we should take creationisms about as seriously as any other belief system, howere vexing that is :LMAO:


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Thu 24 Aug , 2006 2:27 pm
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Take creationism seriously as a belief system I can, but the scenerio would have us teach creationism in the science classroom, and that means that we must teach a lie.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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democritus
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Posted: Thu 24 Aug , 2006 10:23 pm
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Seperation of Church and State vs Freedom of Press


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Thu 24 Aug , 2006 10:37 pm
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Can you have the latter if you don't have the former?

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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elfshadow
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Posted: Thu 24 Aug , 2006 11:18 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Can you have the latter if you don't have the former?

Sure you can. Say the government is run by the church, but they'll let you bitch about anything you want in print.


But personally, I would rather have my writing controlled than my actions controlled. Freedom of the press doesn't hinder freedom of speech, so I could verbalize anything I wanted to. It's a tough choice, because propaganda can do vicious harm in written form, but to have to choose between that and being subject to the laws of a theocracy, I think I would rather go without freedom of the press.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 25 Aug , 2006 12:27 am
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Just freedom of the press, demo? Speech is still unfettered? Or does speech become restricted once the wall between church and state falls?

Hmm, good picks, demo.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 25 Aug , 2006 3:28 am
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I'm not convinced you can separate the two. If you have freedom of speech/press, don't prayers to other gods get covered as free speech? Doesn't publishing of your religious text get covered as free press? How would that work?

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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elfshadow
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Posted: Fri 25 Aug , 2006 3:32 am
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I'd assume that in a theocracy with only freedom of the press out of the constitutional freedoms we're now given, it would be perfectly legal to publish your own religious documents and texts, as long as the government didn't find out that you were using them for worship.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Wed 15 Nov , 2006 12:09 am
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The Nazis or The Jim Jones Cult

Jim Jones info: Trailer to an upcoming movie
Jonestown

I don't think I need to add info about the Nazis. They are pretty well-known enough.

I'm not asking which you would rather join, but which one you can understand the motivation to join up with better.

I understand the Nazis a bit better. Hitler created an arch-nemesis for the German people in the Jews, and then told the people they needed to defend themselves. I think I can understand the motivation to slaughter your enemy better than I understand the motivation to join in a mass suicide or deify a man like Jim Jones.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The belief game
Posted: Mon 15 Sep , 2008 5:36 am
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I am not going to bother to go find the new posts I made in this thread at the old address. I will just make a new post because I liked this game.

The rules are simple. I will pit two issues against each other. You choose which one wins and which loses. If you want to allow one, you must ban the other. Remember: this is a game, no issues are actually going to be harmed, and if you think the choices are hard-- they will be, hopefully. I enjoyed this thought game because I got to see how others think about their beliefs and educated myself on how I think.

I will pose the two combatants now (please no one else suggest any other battles until sufficient time has passed for all to comment, and then let me be the ring master.):

A National Religion (like the Anglican Church back in the day) -- all members of this religion would be forced to pay a tithe and attend services, but would be afforded full citizen rights, while non-members would have to pay a tithe and would not be afforded full citizen rights [again, just like the Anglican Church]

vs

Required Military Service for all citizens after their 18th birthday (similar to how the Israeli army works -- the service would be for a short amount of time, but not stop loss policy)

FIGHT!

Remember: just a game.

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The OG Borry
Post subject: Re: The belief game
Posted: Mon 15 Sep , 2008 11:17 pm
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Military service, by far. Id rather be in an equal place than one that gets to choose who they wish to ostracize or not grant rights to, especially for personal reasons such as faith.
Borry

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Don: so does not

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