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Topic Split: Morality of Self-Defense & Killing Intruder

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There are sufficient questions raised in the article to question the verdict
Poll ended at Fri 03 Mar , 2006 7:42 pm
Yes
  
91% [ 10 ]
No
  
9% [ 1 ]
Total votes: 11
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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 4:09 pm
 
 
wolfgangbos,
I certailny hope you are correct. If I did misread what cg's comment was intended for I apologize.

Alatar, I don't think that was his intention (to incite to hatred). I think he is passionate in what he believes.


feredir


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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 4:28 pm
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Feredir,

I'm 100% confident that I've interpreted CG's comments correctly. But I can't blame you for wanting to hear him say so himself. I would too in your position.

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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 7:24 pm
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Giving medals for something that involves a killing\killing is wrong? Boy we better scrap the Congressional Medal of Honor and a whole bunch of other medals they give out in the military, too.

Yeah. You get the CMH for outstanding bravery among other things. If a badguy was killed as a result of that bravery, well...too bad for him I suppose.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 7:51 pm
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CG wrote:
Wives and girlfriends seldom smash in a door.
Errrrrrr..... I came awfully close one time. :oops: If it had been a normal hollow core interior door, I'd have been through that sucker. As it was, we were in Germany and the door was pretty solid. I only damaged it, despite my best, barehanded efforts....

edit: That was 20 years ago. I'm not near as impulsive nowadays! :halo:

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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 8:05 pm
 
 
Talking night and day here. Time of war versus civilians. I'm sorry, it has not been proven that this person was a "bad guy". We have one biased point of view.

feredir


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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 8:17 pm
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CG stated something to the effect that the man should have been given a medal for what he did in the story from the original post.

Let's summarize a few of the faulty assumptions so far:


Alatar & Feredir thought that CG was suggesting that the man deserved a medal simply because he killed someone. Taken within the context of the thread so far, and within the context of CG's character, this can be safely assumed to be a false assumption.

Onizuka Eikichi thought that Alatar & Feredir were stating that no one should get a medal of honor if the actions they're being recognized for involved killing. Neither Alatar nor Feredir have claimed this. What they have done is express incredulity at the notion that someone would receive an award simply for killing someone. In other words, they would not support someone receiving an award for, as an example, simply walking out of their house and randomly killing the first person they saw. Killing another human is not something to be done lightly, and must be justified.


That's my understanding of both sides, at least. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 8:23 pm
 
 
Exactly where I'm coming from. Thanks :)

feredir


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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 8:48 pm
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This episode of Helpful Clarification brought to you, in part, by Wolfgangbos.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion. :D

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Tue 04 Apr , 2006 3:08 am
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Feredir wrote:
CG, since you clearly hold disdain for the police, if you are in trouble/have an accident, get robbed who do you call? When someone calls 911 and says that she and her roommate have just been stabbed and don't know where the assailant is, can they call you? When you get there are you going to be able to kick the door in and search that house by yourself to help save those girls lives
The courts have determined that the police have no obligation what-so-ever to protect us. Their obligation starts once the crime is over, and anything they do during the crime is beyond the call of duty.

During a crime, you are responsible for your protection. The courts have spoken.

The police are there to take a report so that you can file an insurance claim.

If someone is kicking in my door, it would be nice if there happened to be police there at that exact moment, but call 911 and they might show up and do something about it - but are more likely to show up, take pictures and descriptions, and say "don't worry, we'll catch the guy" and then fail to do so.

So what to do? Practice self defense like this guy did.
Alatar wrote:
C_G, I too find it offensive that you wish to reward people for taking a life. I also think it's against the charter to suggest that in here. I seem to recall provisions against incitement to hatred.
I wish to reward him for defense of home and family, which is the single most noble thing a man can do. He's being unfairly punished because his particular home intruder happened to be a porrly trained cop improperly executing an improperly issued no-knock warrant.


A question for Feredir and Alatar.

Someone is breaking down your door. You called the cops. The dispatcher has said someone is on their way. You don't hear any sirens or see any lights. You don't know when the cops will get there.

This person is expressing violent intent by ramming your door. You haven't seen his face yet, but you see the door starting to give. He will be in in a couple of minutes.

Do you a) patiently let him kill you because the police aren't there yet, or b) prepare to defend yourself to the best of your ability?

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Feredir
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Posted: Tue 04 Apr , 2006 1:01 pm
 
 
First, you must understand. I am the police you ask if I would call. My wife would call the police while I take care of the situation. If I'm the only one there, I'll call 911, lay the phone down, and take care of the situation. Notice that I said take care of the situation, not shoot just because I heard someone banging on the door.

I am not questioning whether one has the right to protect themselves, of course they do. I just don't believe that in the original "incident" that you name that the person did not know that it was the police. He intentionally killed a police officer and should be held accountable.

Police are held accountable. It's called Dereliction of Duty. I will gaurantee that if you are convicted you will never have a job as a police officer again, and you shouldn't.

Now, if your talking about a huge lawsuit...... it depends on the situation.

feredir


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Wed 05 Apr , 2006 1:56 am
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The courts have, as I said, spoken. Police are not responsible for protection, only law enforcement. If they're there at the time, they will protect you, but otherwise they will get there as soon as they get there.

But they do not have an obligation to protect. This was decided when a woman sued the police for not enforcing a restraining order.

That's not dereliction of duty.

Nor did this guy shoot someone who was banging on the door, but instead he shot someone who broke down TWO doors at 3 am.

Yes, I think it's very likely he didn't realize it was a cop. He intentionally shot a home intruder, and should be held accountable for the heroic action of defense of home and family.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Alatar
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Posted: Wed 05 Apr , 2006 9:28 am
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
A question for Feredir and Alatar.

Someone is breaking down your door. You called the cops. The dispatcher has said someone is on their way. You don't hear any sirens or see any lights. You don't know when the cops will get there.

This person is expressing violent intent by ramming your door. You haven't seen his face yet, but you see the door starting to give. He will be in in a couple of minutes.

Do you a) patiently let him kill you because the police aren't there yet, or b) prepare to defend yourself to the best of your ability?

Do not hurt when holding is enough,
do not wound when hurting is enough,
do not maim when wounding is enough,
do not kill when maiming is enough.

The greatest warrior is he who does not need to kill.

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Feredir
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Posted: Wed 05 Apr , 2006 12:01 pm
 
 
cg, I am familiar with the case that you are referring to. Where the courts may say that in SOME instances officers may not be sued, do you honestly think that the majority of officers feel that way? I will tell you that the one's I know, do not. Why else would the police respond to shots fired, find several spents rounds, and eventually kick the door in to check on the residents? To get sued in a "USC 1983" and losing everything? I don't think so. Because we like to risk getting killed and leaving our families? Maybe, just maybe, it's because it is our duty to protect, where we can.

feredir


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laureanna
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Posted: Thu 06 Apr , 2006 6:20 am
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Do you a) patiently let him kill you because the police aren't there yet, or b) prepare to defend yourself to the best of your ability?
c. Hide in the closet.


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr , 2006 2:24 am
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laureanna wrote:
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Do you a) patiently let him kill you because the police aren't there yet, or b) prepare to defend yourself to the best of your ability?
c. Hide in the closet.
That is, essentially, a.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr , 2006 3:13 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Doesn't *any* house in the US have a back door to run out of? Apparently none in the movies, for sure.

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr , 2006 3:31 pm
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Apartments usually don't, Liddy.

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr , 2006 3:41 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Or working fire escapes?

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Meril36
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr , 2006 11:22 pm
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Not our apartment complex, Lidless. Just a front door and a back window. Back window not really being an option for those on the second floor.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr , 2006 11:26 pm
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Yeah, front door is my only exit in my apartment. Unless I want to break a window and screen and jump out the third story.


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