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The Hard Word - a game about ethics and morals

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Impenitent
Post subject: The Hard Word - a game about ethics and morals
Posted: Sat 22 Jan , 2005 9:54 pm
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Not really a game; maybe more an ethical/moral challenge.

A question will be posed; the idea is to answer as honestly and deeply as possible from a personal perspective. It would be more interesting to resist the temptation to fall back on the theoretical, or the answer may devolve to motherhood statements.

The question would stay up for about a week; then someone else can pose a new question.

If the idea falls flat, I'll ask for the thread to be removed (I dislike dead threads hanging around - makes me feel forlorn)

Anyway, I hope we can give it a run. I feel I haven't contributed anything here yet (although you may judge this not much of a contribution either.)

----------------------
1. Would you rather cheat than be cheated? Please give context in your answer - context is everything.

Edited to fix bold vs italics

Last edited by Impenitent on Sun 23 Jan , 2005 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethel
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Posted: Sun 23 Jan , 2005 12:07 am
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I'll give it a go.

I would rather be cheated than to cheat. Being cheated feels bad, it makes you angry and it can feel like a betrayal. But cheating damages your soul. I don't mean this in the Christian sense. I think dishonesty of every kind is damaging.

But you wanted context. I'll say this: my mother was a crazy person. Not quite clinical, but close. We were never allowed to do anything, and as a consequence my brothers and I all became very accomplished liars. It's a terrible habit - and it is a habit. My wakeup call came in a conversation with my brother where he was relating an incident which I also witnessed, and he wasn't just shading the truth - he altered it almost out of recognition. The frightening thing about this was that he clearly believed what he was saying. That's what being an accomplished liar does to you.

I promised myself that day that I would never do or say anything dishonest again - because it's wrong, but more importantly because it messes up your head. I can't say I have kept that promise perfectly, but it's important to me and I really try.

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 24 Jan , 2005 9:13 am
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I don't have the time to wirte out all my breathtaking ideas now (or I don't have any), but I'm afraid, Impenitent might change her mind about making this thread stay, so I absolutely wanted to tell her that I'd like to get a chance to answer.

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Mon 24 Jan , 2005 3:55 pm
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I lack moral integrity like I lack suntan, I have cheated and I was/am cheated by others, but neither am I proud of an accomplished (and undetected) cheat nor am I unforgiving for those which I detected.

Life is easier with moral integrity, in the long run. Guilt accumulates and gets cumbersome, and one needs a damn good ability to remember if one wants to set his construction of reality against those of others.

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Axordil
Post subject: Does this boil down to...
Posted: Mon 24 Jan , 2005 4:41 pm
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...would you rather be stupid or evil? :twisted:

Ethel, I agree that cheating, or perhaps lying in general, has a corrosive (good word!) effect. It has taken me years to recover fully from an eight-year stretch in which I first lived a lie, and then got to be on the receiving end.

Mummpizz-oh yes, guilt accumulates. I tried being a sociopath once, but I couldn't quite squash that damn cricket, and eventually he got the better of me.

On the other hand, I have more empathy now for people on either side of the problem. I am in most respects pretty non-judgmental, but I feel as if I can ask people "do you really think this is going to end up well?" from a position of painfully acquired knowledge.

Have I avoided the question long enough yet? :D

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Berhael
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Posted: Mon 24 Jan , 2005 5:32 pm
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What Ax said.

I've cheated and been cheated on, and I don't know what's worse; for anyone with a conscience, cheating, or lying, *is* corrosive. However, being lied to/cheated on I can forgive, having been there myself, even if it hurts. Like Ax says, it's given me insights into other people's minds and behaviour, and made me a little less arrogant and self-righteous.

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Mon 24 Jan , 2005 8:50 pm
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Not sure this is about the relation ship kind of cheating. will take a shot nevertheless. i too have cheated and been cheated on.

I know now i was stupid to do so. I had no reason and would not have done it if i had been sober. But alas i was not. I regretted it and confessed all and felt remorse. I am a terrible liar and feel it in my guts when i do lie.

When i was cheated on however it was more painful. i had no clue of what was going on. i felt horribly deceived and began to make up reason why he could have done it. I was sure there had to be some kind of reason to cheat. My reason had been booze then what was his?

Can you forgive a person that has cheated on you?
Yes and no. I could never be able to trust that person again fully as i had done before. i'd always be suspicious. and then again. yes i cheated, then why wouldn't he feel the same remorse as me. everyone deserves a second chance.

either way i can't live with someone i know who has lied to me once nor would it be right for him to remain with me i didn't lie about it but crossed a line anyway.

such a difficult subject.

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Leoba
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Posted: Mon 24 Jan , 2005 9:05 pm
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I think I would rather do the cheating.

That way I'd know what I'm dealing with - I'd know what happened, what lies I've told and what weaknesses in myself I'd have to deal with and learn from. When someone else cheats on you, or lies, or acts deceitfully, you have the horrid guessing games and the pain of having your trust breached. Those parameters are unseen and therefore harder to partition and rationalise.

The context....

I've been lied to by people who I thought were friends - stuff of the fake gender online or attention-seeking anorexic 'single white female-esqe' sort of affair.

As far as I know no-one has ever cheated on me in a relationship sense, but I cheated on my husband in the month and a half before I broke up with him: I was sober, mostly clear-headed, and I don't regret it. Although I do have problems with my having breached my own moral code and I hope I would never be in the position again where I would find that sort of thing conscionable.


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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Tue 25 Jan , 2005 7:07 pm
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I'll give a shot at the "lying/cheating" sort, not the "relationship" sort, but I kind of wander into both.

Basically, it all depends on your moral values, and the conflict between two, honesty, and prevention of harm. The second can be preventing harm to the other person, or to yourself, depending on what the lies are. I'll admit, there is the instance of people lying just because they like lying, but that's kind of pointless, and has no redeeming value since the truth is just as workable as a lie, so I'm assuming that most people are going to talk about when telling the truth or doing something honest would be worse than telling a lie (unless you're trying to hurt someone...). Then, of course, you can go in the "you determine your reality" route, so if you don't know you're being lied to, everything's fine since in your reality, everything is perfect...

Ok, enough rambling. If "preventing harm" is more important to you than "honesty", there shouldn't be a problem lying or cheating. However, if "honesty" is more important, don't do it. Personally I'm not sure which is more important.

A note on lying and cheating: do it as little as possible. Whenever possible, use the truth, or, better yet, don't talk. Silence is not a lie unless you're directly responsible for telling someone about what you've done (when in a relationship, silence on cheating Is lying...because, as part of a relationship, you're responsible for the health of the relationship, and cheating isn't healthy at all...that's betraying the trust your partner has for you...if the world didn't have any aftereffects for cheating, it might be different...'course, depending on the health of the relationship, cheating may be perfectly alright). Lies are like bluffs in poker...don't pull them too often and you won't be caught, and you'll be able to pull them off when you need to. But be aware, they can always be busted if you're not careful...

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satch
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Posted: Wed 26 Jan , 2005 1:09 am
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I guess... I'd prefer to cheat.

One of my first friends when I moved here lied about everything. I don't think it was for any particular reason, other than she was really bloody good at it. Sometimes she'd lie to help herself get out of shit, or if she - say - owed someone money, she'd come up with an elaborate, but convincing story about how she didn't. And she was one of those people you couldn't argue with... or at least I couldn't. But now... oooohhh... ;). But anyway... back to my story...

Even though she was a lovely person, she would bitch about anyone and everyone behind their backs - and that made her incredibly two faced. Even now, years later, I still wouldn't ever be sure if she was being sincere or if she was still lying and slagging people off behind their backs. Plus, I'm a slightly (ahem) bitter person, and I tend to hold a grudge. Or I'll keep thinking back to whatever time it is that so and so person did something which I didn't agree with. And because of that, we'll never be able to be friends again like we once were, but I guess if it was the other way round and I had done the lying, maybe the other person would be more forgiving.

At least, if it was me lying I would know that I screwed up in the past, but wouldn't do it again. But if it's the other way round I wouldn't ever really know if it was in the past, or if I was still being lied to.


(Repetition I know :roll:, and I don't *always* hold a grudge. With my new found ability to express my views, I have also found a hint of forgiveness. They go hand in hand it seems... ;))

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Farawen
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Posted: Mon 31 Jan , 2005 1:26 pm
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*cough* New question, anybody? *cough* :)


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Rodia
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Posted: Mon 31 Jan , 2005 1:57 pm
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I think I'd rather be cheated on. Because I forgive and forget very very easily, to the point of being gullible, so it doesn't hurt me so much. Sometimes I don't even see the problem where others do. I loathe all sort of finality, and if I ever say 'never' it means I'm very angry or tired, and all you have to do is wait a day for me to change my mind.

Cheating...well, I've lied, like anyone, I guess. I've also played a bit of a cruel game with a friend- but I stopped when I realised it wasn't fun for her in the end. Thought she'd hate me...she decided to become my best friend instead, so, hmm, I guess cheating does pay off sometimes. :scratch

Though I have to admit, happily enough, I haven't been cheated on much. In fact I'm not sure I can remember anyone deceiving me... Maybe that's because I'm gullible, or maybe I'm just very lucky.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 12:32 am
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Thank you to all who responded to this - especially Ethel, who took the plunge first. I think if you had not, no one else would have had the courage either. I know it's quite a challenging thing to honestly answer something like this - much easier to let it slip than to be so self-revelatory.

I didn't answer it - I will now.

In little things, I would rather be cheated - for example, I would rather be cheated by a shopkeeper (even for a large purchase) because it's better for my soul and the loss in such a case is only be monetary and wouldn't cause me emotional damage. Better the splinter in his soul than in mine, for the sake of a few dollars.

In larger things, where it concerns people I love, I admit I'd rather cheat than be cheated because I'm a lily-livered coward and can't cope with the emotional hurt of finding out I've been deceived by someone I love.

I have cheated emotionally twice (that I can remember; maybe I did as a kid but the memories haven't stuck) - and I felt awful about it. Once, as a teenager, I didn't have the courage to face up to a boy and tell him honestly that I wasn't interested in him. I went through loops trying to evade him, avoid him, made excuses; he found out in the worst way possible and I felt so terrible! I learned from it though and became a better person by it.

The second time has been more recent and has caused more heartache than I can express - all for me, though, for the cheating has been in my heart and not physical and remains a black hole in my own soul only. Would I undo it if I could? I don't know.

But I know that I'd rather it was not the other way around - I lack fortitude and have such shakey self-confidence and self-esteem that discovering I've been emotionally cheated by someone I love would knock me down in a way that I'm not sure I could recover from.

I don't like that about myself - but better, I guess, to admit it than practice self-deception.

------------

Another question:

Would you forgive a friend if they had - lied to you? Stolen from you? Cheated you? Once? Repeatedly? How far does your forgiveness go?


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Ethel
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 1:00 am
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Impenitent wrote:
Another question:

Would you forgive a friend if they had - lied to you? Stolen from you? Cheated you? Once? Repeatedly? How far does your forgiveness go?
Well, there's lying and lying. I will always forgive friends for telling me my ass doesn't look fat in these pants even if it does. Small, social lies are no problem. If you say, "I mailed the check," when what you really mean is, "Oh shit! I better get that check in the mail!" - I think that's just being human.

But about big stuff? I do not forgive significant dishonesty easily. There would have to be some kind of "come to Jesus" discussion between the friend in question and myself. I would have to understand where they were coming from - fear or defensiveness perhaps. And I would have to be reasonably certain it wouldn't happen again.

Stealing? Cheating? These are friends we're talking about, right? No, I don't think I'd give a "friend" more than one chance to steal from me. I'm not talking about failing to return a book here, or a roommate forgetting to ask before borrowing a sweater - but about taking something valuable of mine without my permission. Nope. That's not ever okay.

What is friendship without trust?

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Lidless
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 4:08 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Impenitent wrote:
Would you forgive a friend if they had - lied to you? Stolen from you? Cheated you? Once? Repeatedly? How far does your forgiveness go?
I ducked out of the first question, but this one is a no-brainer.

Pretty much what Ethel said. Once something like that happens, they don't come under the definition of 'friend'. Not in my book, and my book's the dictionary.

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 8:50 pm
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yeps echoing Ethel. soacial lies aren't that bad unless i really want to know whether wearing something will make me look like a complete fool. Then i rather have my friends tell me in honesty "yes i wouldn't wear it if i were you." It probably the reason why i hardly go shopping on me own, i need to have feedback :oops: But getting a friend over when i am lets say sick and she says i don't look that bad at all i would know she's lying but wouldn't mind. she'd be trying to boost me a little ;)

But when it comes to stealing, lying to me about stuff that's important i no longer count that person as a friend. I need friends i can trust not one that'll just tell me what ever he/she feels like at that moment. I've had a 'friend' that had troubles at home, serious troubles and i took her to my home to unwind for a while. After a few days i began missing jewelry. At first i thought it was me misplacing them but when a bracelet my aunt had given me mysteriously dissapeared after she had come to visit i knew it wasn't me. I asked her and she got angry at me calling me a backstabbing bitch. I later found out through a friend she had been stealing; she had seen one of my bracelets in her room. She lied to me and i will never forgive her for stealing something from me.

This friend pretty much managed to destroy all her friendships through lying.

So my forgiveness would stop as soon as people crush my trust, don't lie to me, about anything i am serious about. Tell me up front i look ridiculous but give me suggestions, with just bashing i can't change. I need trust in return when i give i

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Nin
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 12:39 pm
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I am sorry to come back to the first question, I wanted to do so for a long time, just did not find the time.

Sometimes, cheating or lying cannot be avoided. Especially lying. In our societies, we maybe face this problem less, but having had an entire week of commemoration behind me, I can only say that for instance those, who hid jewish people during WWII and lied to everybody in their surroundings are heroes. In a non-democratic society as an escape from tyranny, lying can be vital. Those are lies with a purpose.

In school – I preferred to be the cheating student than the teacher at whom they cheat. When my students cheat I wonder what I have done wrong, so that they did not understand. I also have no choice but to punish them. It’s my role. The student has the choice to cheat or not. Once I catch him, I have no choice concerning my reaction.

In relationship: as far as I can tell, I have never been cheated at. My husband is one of those people for whom complete fidelity is a condition for a relationship. That’s at least what he says and has always said. I have never cheated on him either. Or… in my heart only. And honestly, this has been difficult for me. The fact that I was able to develop feelings or love and physical desire for someone else has disturbed me greatly. I wondered if I had in my head a moral codex of the 19th century. If I was normal. Should I feel guilty for something that did not really come to happen? Just for wanting someone else? Especially as I would not judge someone else, even for cheating. My best friend had a lover last year – her husband had opened a firm of his own and neglected her shamelessly. She felt alone. But I could see it did not mean that she did not love her husband any more – it was just that she needed rather desperately something that he could not give her. And when her husband called me, telling he feared that she had someone else, I did not sell her away. I told him that I had never seen her speak about someone with the same love she speaks about him. Which was somehow the truth. He took more time for her again. Things worked out. But he does not know.

I felt no sense in judging her, yet I have judged myself for developing feelings for someone else. Contradictory? Maybe….

I think, eventually I would prefer to be on the cheated side, because I know I could forgive. I don’t know if I could be forgiven. But on the other hand… maybe I’d prefer to be on the cheating side – or would have preferred at some point.

In the end, I don’t know.

Not much of a help, hein? But I still wanted to say my two words, because I have been struggling with those questions, and I was so relieved when I read Imp’s comment the other day, showing me that other people take things happening in their heart only as seriously as I do.

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Rodia
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Posted: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 4:12 pm
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No one has ever treated me that way (or I can't remember :Q), so I can only say what I think and hope I would do. I hope I'd forgive that friend, and just give them another go.

Of course, not if they told me to fuck off you wanker. But if a friend did me wrong and then came back and said, look, I'm sorry, I was wrong....I'd give them another chance.



Repeatedly? That's too hard. I just don't grasp the idea, all the friends I've trusted have treated me well so far.

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vison
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Posted: Sat 05 Feb , 2005 11:19 pm
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Nothing like jumping in with both feet. Is the water cold?

Cheat or be cheated on? What I do is up to me, what happens to me is sometimes up to someone else. I wouldn't cheat. That's in my control.

However, like President Carter, I have now and again lusted after others in my heart. So? It's a common thing and only wrong if you act out of that lust and break your vows.

If someone cheated on me? I'd be devastated. But it wouldn't be my crime, and that would make it better, somehow.

The other thing is, DON'T CONFESS. God, these confessing types get me down. "I feel so awful, I just have to tell you...." Look, that's guilt and remorse. Guilt and remorse are your punishment for doing wrong!!!! Don't spill them all over. It happened to two friends of mine, their husbands had affairs and then they just HAD to tell their wives. One wife had guessed and one hadn't, but both are divorced now. And both ex-husbands blame their wives for "not being able to forgive". "I confessed my guilt," this guy cried to me, "and that witch couldn't forgive me." Well, cry me a river, buddy. You shoulda kept it to yourself and you might still have a wife and family.

O, maybe I'm being too harsh. No, on second thought, I'm not. If the partner ASKS, then be truthful. But don't volunteer.

Forgive a friend for lying to you or stealing from you? Yes, I guess I would, depending on the circumstances. As Ethel so honestly said above, I too was once a terribly accomplished liar. And the reasons? So complex. It was this THING. :scratch :scratch In Manwe on the other forum there is a very interesting thread on personality types and as I read it I began to realize that when I was a teenager, all those centuries ago, I lied to be more interesting, to "fit in", to build my ego, to appear to be something and someone I'm not. It was really quite appalling and to this day there are people who "know" things I told them, who still believe them, and who I hope to god I never meet. I just couldn't deal with it!!! I still lie more often than I should, but you know, there are times when it's the only recourse a reasonable person can take. It's wrong, but I salve my conscience by believing I'm saving someone from being hurt. Lies are awful, though. They hang around waiting to bite you in the ass.

I've been lucky. No one of my friends has ever stolen from me, and if they have lied, I don't know it. But once when I was managing a little factory, I hired a friend to work part-time. The second she came in the door she was after my job and after about two years, she got it. She was incredible. If it hadn't been so hurtful, I would have admired her singlemindedness. I quit, with this parting shot, "There's only room for one queen bee in this hive and I guess you're it." She had a terrible life and she fought her battles with the weapons nature gave her and I just got in her way. My life, next to hers, was a bed of roses, so it was easy enough to forgive her.


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Impenitent
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 12:44 am
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Hi Vison, and such a treat to open this thread and see you in it!

I agree with you with regards to confession - just a way of dumping all your crap on someone else.

I also think that the betrayal of the heart is sometimes not as simple as lust; sometimes it is a real betrayal, when you are no longer present emotionally, when the relationship becomes form and not substance, even for a little while.

Nin - I appreciate that you were so candid. Hard thing to do. My experience was incredibly painful; I was just not sure where I belonged for awhile.

On the forgiveness question: for most people it is easy to forgive the little things. That situation can probably be discounted.

But I was thinking of the big things: can you forgive those? I usually respond with so much anger and disappointment and pain that for a long time forgiveness does not seem possible. But I do make the attempt to leave it behind, not carry all that anger with me for it can only damage my self. That doesn't mean that the friendship can always be salvaged because even if forgiveness comes, trust doesn't necessarily. That has to do with stupidity, I think, more than forgiveness.

Once you learn something about a person - that they have the capacity to eg lie to you on a serious matter; or steal from you; or cheat you out of something meaningful - are you likely to forget it? Forgiveness when remorse is expressed is one thing - another word for accepting the flaws and not holding them against the person - but to not learn from that experience is stupid.

So, can you forgive and reforge a friendship when forgiveness is asked for? Or do you close the door and lock it?


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