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What makes something a sport?

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Which one of these isn't a sport?
Hockey
  
0% [ 0 ]
Ice Dancing
  
71% [ 5 ]
Golf
  
29% [ 2 ]
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10FTTALL
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 5:34 pm
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My line would be drawn at the "general use" test, although it would have almost the same practical result as the judging test. If an activity is almost soley used for the purpose of competition then, yes it is a sport. This is what would eliminate me from claiming walking to my mailbox is a sport, even if I formed a governing body with a couple of my neighbors, we judged each other, and handed out trophies. This is not intended to be a competition. Neither is dancing. Dancing's general use is an exhibition. Neither is cheerleading for a school. cheerleading's general purpose is to lead cheers/build spirit. Freestyle snowboarding, skateboarding - not sports. Golf and even mini golf, yes, both were created with competition as a backbone element. Horse jumping, yes, I'm pretty sure the only reason that's done is to compete. Curling is a sport, no other purpose than competion.

Bottom line, I would not put something in the category of a sport just because people in an established activity have gotten together and said, "this is fun, let's get some judges and compete to see who they think is best,"

The only other factor I would consider is a physical element that cannot be performed on a whim by the general populace. Poker is out, as most everybody can pick up cards. Chess is out, Bowling is in, golf is in. Theoretically, video games could be considered depending on the genre.

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Wolfgangbos
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Hmmm... There's an arcade game called Dance Dance Revolution. There's 4 pressure-sensitive pads on the floor of the machine that the player has to step on in the right order and rhythm to score well. People compete for the highest score all the time, with scores being based upon the accuracy of their steps with the on-screen cues.

It requires a definite degree of athleticism and foot-eye coordination to pull off. I can't say for sure, but I strongly suspect that competitions have been organized in various places to see who is the best at this game.

Who would see this as a sport?

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yovargas
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I think arguing if this or that is a sport is kind of silly. Even if Marching Band isn't a sport... who cares? ...The very question of this thread is implying that competitions that don't qualify as a "sport" are somehow inferior to those that do.
This whole thread reminds me of similar questions about whether X is actually art or not. Your comment here applies equally to that debate.


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Wilma
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I guess people don't count referees as judges? It seems pretty obvious to me. A refs decision can decide a whole game.

For curling the physical activity aspect can be pretty difficult to ascertain.

If people were figure at the time on the ice and one can see directly how much better one skates then another would it be considered a sport then?

I don't think people can pick up figure skating on a whim. I actually tried to jump up and spin and well it didn't go to well.

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Ice dancing is a form of cabaret, golf is the outdoor equivalent of getting your banana skin into a waste paper bin and hockey is a martial art. :P

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10FTTALL
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I guess people don't count referees as judges? It seems pretty obvious to me. A refs decision can decide a whole game.
Nope, refs don't score each play to see how well they like it, then figure out the winner. And a decision cannot decide the whole game. It might end a game, but it does not decide it any more than the field goal one team missed earlier in the game or the player that slipped on the grass when he could've blocked a goal, etc.
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For curling the physical activity aspect can be pretty difficult to ascertain.
It's not the amount of physical activity, it's the physical skill. This is why doubles luge is a sport rather than a wierd sexual position. The whole run, the riders just wiggle various body parts to steer. As Matt & Al demonstrated on the Today show, you have to be good at it, you don't just automatically go the right way.
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If people were figure at the time on the ice and one can see directly how much better one skates then another would it be considered a sport then?
No. The number of participants at one time nothing to do with sport designation. Figure skating is a judged exhibition of a high performing minority, branching from an activity that is not generally competitive. Breathtaking and difficult? Yes. Sport, no
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This whole thread reminds me of similar questions about whether X is actually art or not. Your comment here applies equally to that debate.
The discussion in this case, we're just talking semantics. Nobody is putting anything down. All these activities are extremely challenging to be proficient, and most all are beautiful to observe, sport or not. On the other hand, the debate about art is wether it deserves to be revered under the almighty "ART" or if it's just a haphazard piece of shit.

Last edited by 10FTTALL on Fri 24 Feb , 2006 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Eruname
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Quote:
The very question of this thread is implying that competitions that don't qualify as a "sport" are somehow inferior to those that do.
I agree completely with this statement.
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And Eruname, I taught in school for 33 years --- I have seen kids in band, taught them, and can also see what shape they are in. Many work hard and have talent but please do not confuse them with athletes in sport. It is apples and cinder blocks.
Wrong! Did you not watch the video clip I posted the link to? Many of the kids are in great shape. Sure there are some overweight ones...just like the fat kids who play football.

I have to say your snobbery is really aggravating. It comes from a lack of understanding and it's something I had to deal with for many years. It's aggravating to think back about all those kids who participated in sports thinking they were better than those in band and that band is some nerdy, incredibly easy thing to do and that we couldn't at all be considered atheletes. What absolute bs. I may absolutely hate marching band and loathe the fact that I was forced to spend so many hours participating in it, but I will defend the physicality of it. It is not easy and it does take physical strength and endurance.

Sprinters couldn't run marathons. Does that make them the lesser athlete? No. Marathon runners could not sprint as fast as the sprinters. Does that make them the lesser athelete? No.

This is totally off topic, but I have to say it. I'm pretty sure the active members on this board realize that you taught school for 33 years. It's not necessary to keep repeating it.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 8:59 pm
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For Eru :hug: I understand you :) March on my friend :D

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sauronsfinger
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Eruname

perhaps you missed it earlier.... but i did say this morning the following regarding Marching Band activity
-------------------------------------------------

Marching Band is a wonderful activity that brings tremendous positives to a school. It is an activity which requires skill, talent and physical activity. It demands an investment of time and energy that speaks very highly of those who participate in it.

Schools, and life in general, should have activities and events which can appeal to different kinds of people. It would be a very dull world if we all simply were baseball players...... or in the marching band for that matter.

I do agree that some participants in marching band can use the activity to increase their level of physical fitness. I would also only be telling the truth if I did not also say that I have seen many band members do their dardenest to get out of having to take gym class and many who appeared not to be in good physical shape.

I have an extended family member who attended the local Plymouth-Canton High School. Those of you into band can check their record of success in area and national competition. He got to be the main man with the big stick that leads the band around the field. He even got a four year scholarship to University of Michigan and got that job in his senior year. He worked like the devil. In terms of athletic skill - he has none. He throws a ball like a girl, cannot run to save his life, and has always been overweight and slow.

So please, let us not confuse performance events which require some skill and talent and hard work and lots of rehearsal time with actual competitive sport. Its two different things.
------------------------------------------------------

From you latest post, it sounds like you have some internal issues with your own history on this matter --- so this seems a sensitive sore spot with you --- I will leave it alone out of respect for you.

I do hope the activity was a good one for you and you have some good memories of your Band days. :)

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Wilma
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 11:27 pm
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For figure sketing (at least) the rules have changed it's not about liking how much someone does something. It's how well the person does something.

Is it just me or is there a gender spilt on what counts as a sport?

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vincent
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Some friends and I argued about this, me and another friend argued that fishing was a sport, the general feeling that it really wasn't, I still hold to fishing as a sport though. No judges, a life and death struggle, physically it can be very demanding, try fighting and landing a 80lbs halibut, or a 40lbs salmon or even a 10lbs salmon, and quite a bit of skill as well. Yes there is some element of luck, but a good fisherman makes his own luck.

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Holbytla
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TheMary wrote:
I don't know about you all but I'm feeling quite athletic these days :P
Sex and Marching Bands are not sports. :P

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10FTTALL
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For figure sketing (at least) the rules have changed it's not about liking how much someone does something. It's how well the person does something.
It's still just as much a judgement call. Unless it is stripped down to measurable parameters such as "the skater must jump and rotate 3 times, then land on one skate only." Then every skater who accomplishes this would get X number of points. Even in the new system, every skater can jump, rotate 3 times, and land on one skate...but receive a wide range of marks based on how the judges liked their performance of it.
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No judges, a life and death struggle, physically it can be very demanding, try fighting and landing a 80lbs halibut, or a 40lbs salmon or even a 10lbs salmon, and quite a bit of skill as well. Yes there is some element of luck, but a good fisherman makes his own luck.
A lot of effort does not a sport make. I would still put fishing in the area of physical activity that could be accomplished by the general populace. A first timer could be talked through fishing with good results, so I see it as a competition with physical elements, but mental skill - like chess with more muscle.

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Wilma
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Actually the system has changed so liking does not come into it. That is why if 2 skaters attempt a quadruple jump and they both fall if one comepletes all 4 rotations and another does less then all 4 rotations there will be a fixed amount of points they can get. The one that comepletes all 4 roatations will get more points then the one who dosen't do all 4 roations. Also, an individual gets more points attempting a quadruple jump then successfully completeing a triple, so it is worth the risk to do a quadruple jump. Especially depending on what the other competitiors do (because it is a competition).
Some say Michelle Kwan (sp?) could have actually had a chance to win the gold this time since many of the women competitors were not doing triple triple combinations (something Ms. Kwan can't compete with). Usually though they do attempt that sort of thing. I was actually surprised at how 'safe' most of the womens programs were. Figure skating has become alot more dificult and risky since the judging system has changed. A perfect example of this is the female russian skater didn't win. She fell, if it was the old system she still woul dhave won since the judges would have liked her. Now with a fall you lose a set amount of points.

The maximum points awarded to a skater is not 6.0 anymore, the maximum mark depends on the routine. The more difficult the routine the high the maximum amount points a skater can accumulate. That is why ice danceing became so difficult this year (no one falls in ice dancing and this year 5 couples fell). The skaters came up with more difficult routines to outcomepete the other. It's really raised the bar. (Not to mention the required elements changed.)

Also, sometimes skaters do throw in unscheduled stuff to make up points.

There is a fixed ideal of how a particular pose is done. If it's sloppy you get less points then if you do it properly. Also how fast one does the element counts too. One does not have to be an expert to see how well a skater does something. (There was pretty sad skating in the womens competition). For example with the spin where you put your leg over your head, how straight tthat leg is matters in how many points a person gets (not to mention how fast the spinner is spinning). THat seems pretty measurable to me.

It's kind of similar to modifying form and technique in racing, to become more arrowdynamic and gain more speed. Rather then shavng off tenths of a second in skating it's gaining tenths of a point (for a straighter leg, for example).

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10FTTALL
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Actually the system has changed so liking does not come into it.
I'm beginning to see why our opinions differ here. I say the score comes from how well the judges like the performance, based on a concrete difficulty levels. You say the score comes from how well the skater carries out the element, based on a concrete difficulty level. We are saying the same thing. It just seems you think that judges are an objective measure of every leg straightness, head angle, balance wobble, etc. I don't think they are, and it is still very much a judged competition. Even though you only see one set of numbers pop up after the routine, it still comes from an average taken from a random 6 out of the 9 judges or something like that.
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There is a fixed ideal of how a particular pose is done. If it's sloppy you get less points then if you do it properly. Also how fast one does the element counts too. One does not have to be an expert to see how well a skater does something.
I beg to differ, I would have awarded medals to a lot of skaters that did not fall at all, whose routines were every bit as beautiful as the winners in my eyes. :) If judging were as straightforward as you are saying, the Olympic judges would all score the same thing, and there would be no need for so many.

Judging is still judging, no matter what guidelines are given...unless the event is not judged real time, but frame by frame in replay, using ruler, compass, and protractor.
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It's kind of similar to modifying form and technique in racing, to become more arrowdynamic and gain more speed. Rather then shavng off tenths of a second in skating it's gaining tenths of a point (for a straighter leg, for example).
Racing is absolutely measurable though. Form does help, but it's not essential. If a bobsledder has done a great run out and zooms through part of the course, he could stand up and stick his tongue out at the crowd, and so long as he finishes with the fastest time, he will still get gold.

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yovargas
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If judging were as straightforward as you are saying, the Olympic judges would all score the same thing, and there would be no need for so many.
That pretty much ruins any arguments of total objectivity. As long as different judges are giving different scores, then personal opinion is coming into the equation (dropping it out of the 'sports' category, imo).


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Wilma
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Well I give up. I guess refereeing isn't judging. :roll: I am done. Who is to say though the judges don't go through ytings frame by frame.

With speed skating some have suspected in one race the person who won the gold false started and they let it go. To me that is a judgement call.

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Posted: Mon 27 Feb , 2006 2:21 am
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Eru wrote:
hal wrote:
The very question of this thread is implying that competitions that don't qualify as a "sport" are somehow inferior to those that do.

I agree completely with this statement.
If anyone is getting that impression, it ain't coming from this thread. Nowhere have I seen anyone say that an activity that isn't a sport is "inferior".

Assume the worst: the b77 way.

10ft tall, good points.

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Eruname
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:roll:

I should be more specific. It's some of the replies that give me that feeling. No, no one has directly said that, but I can't help but get that feeling from some of the adjectives they've used to describe other activities that are not sports in their eyes. I don't get that feeling from the question you asked, though, TED.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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I'm glad to hear, Eru. :D

Now that we're all back on the same page...

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