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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 8:42 pm
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So people should be sheep and accept what ever is told to them by the government? I have a whole country right in between Canada and Mexico that is currently doing just that, the economy is failing, its involved in a near civil war in Iraq, getting ready to go to war with Iran, taking its peoples civil rights away right and left and the people are just fine so long as they have 151 channels of cheap entertainment.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 8:55 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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No not all anti-gov films are propaganda and I don't think they should be ignored. I think they should be taken with a grain of salt or balanced out by Rush Limbaugh.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 8:58 pm
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who said anything about being sheep.

I say get your own facts, or take facts you get from other sources and make what you will of them.

I have no doubt this film has many facts in it. I would hope it doesn't distort facts to the extent Moore does. But it's the commentary and "interviews" that cause those facts to be slanted.

Even facts can be presented in ways that distort them to the point of being non-fact.

the problem with Moore, and most likely this film... is that people view them, assume they provide all the facts, and reference the film as "proof" that things are right.

This is counterproductive to the truth of any matter.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:01 pm
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But Hal the BA does the exact same thing, and unlike Moore or this film, the BA is not supposed to be distorting things. Where are the WMD?

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:10 pm
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Did I ever say anything about the Bush administration?

ALL propaganda is just as bad.

IF it's the government, it's bad. IF it's a film claiming to be a documentary to add weight to their point of view, it's also bad.

People do what they want ot get their point accross. If they're deceptive about it, I don't like it.

From the article linked in this thread, I think this film is deceptive... I'll not like it.

I don't think Bush was being deceptive about WMDs, I don't care about them.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:12 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Listen people my jokes aren't funny unless you laugh at them :neutral:

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Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:29 pm
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I love how a large bit of the people in this thread have already decided whether this film is slanting the facts or not, even though not one person has even claimed to have seen it... :roll:

How bout we go watch the thing and THEN argue about it?

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:31 pm
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Gimli, that's just silly...

:Wooper:

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:34 pm
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:Wooper:

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:34 pm
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Serious question: Why do you (generic you) think we went to war with Iraq?

I seriously don't know what to think anymore.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:38 pm
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The government should be held to higher standards than fiction movie makers. Moore is a filmmaker, he deals with stories. The government deals with real life. Moore's film and this one both will not affect me, my cost of living, my gas prices or anything, however the government does affect me.

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:38 pm
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Sorry Yov but I don't care why we went to war. I think we should have gone because it will be better for the iraqi people in the long run.... or at least I thought that before the insurgency started anyways. As I am not a military stratagist, I have no idea if we were prepared, not prepared, qualified, etc to go. I don't blame the US govt completely for the problems going on there now. I do blame them for doing stupid things like sending our troops over with out proper armor and so forth. I think the majority of the problems are caused by the insurgency, not by some conspiracy in the US Govt to gain oil, or make money.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:42 pm
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Quote:
I think the majority of the problems are caused by the insurgency, not by some conspiracy in the US Govt to gain oil, or make money.
Which would make it a simple case of serious incompetency if it weren't for the loads of officials I've heard over the years saying that we knew the insurgency was a very likely result and we went in anyways. Why would that knowledge be ignored? Just...none of it makes sense anymore.


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:42 pm
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Quote:
I think the majority of the problems are caused by the insurgency, not by some conspiracy in the US Govt to gain oil, or make money.
Which would make it a simple case of serious incompetency if it weren't for the loads of officials I've heard over the years saying that we knew the insurgency was a very likely result and we went in anyways. Why would that knowledge be ignored? Just...none of it makes sense anymore.


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:44 pm
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it wasn't ignored, it was thought we could handle it... and we are... as long as they don't plunge into a civil war... which was probably also thought about ahead of time... and we thought we could prevent it.

THAT may be the thing that decides if this whole thing was good or bad in the end....

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:44 pm
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Gimli

And now that a civil war is about to start, why are we there now?

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:45 pm
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nice double ;) spammer...


I have no answer to your question. Was it ignored? I dunno. Maybe they thought they had planned for it... Personaly, I don't see how one can plan for that thing. You have one side supposedly following the geneva convention, and one side clearly not.. I will let you choose which side is which, I don't think it really matters for this arguement! How can one expect to ever win?

EDIT for ara-anna... Unforutnatly it does look like civil war. Should we be there? I don't know. Part of me says yes we should since we are the ones that invaded to begin with... another part of me says that the US has nothing to do with the two sides in iraq hating each other. That was there long before we were so if they can't manage to work together, why should more of ours soldiers die because of it.

This may be the excuse for the US to get out of Iraq. I guess one can argue that we were trying to help, but the Iraqi's themselves chose civil war instead of peace.

Last edited by gimli_axe_wielder on Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:45 pm
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hopefully to try and prevent it.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:46 pm
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yovargas wrote:
Serious question: Why do you (generic you) think we went to war with Iraq?
I will answer for the specific me. :)

I think there were a number of people in the DoD and Executive Branch who harbored a grudge from Gulf War I and wanted to finish the job (so to speak). That's one factor. More importantly, the American Way of Life depends on a fast, uninterrupted flow of oil from the Middle-East. The neocons want US troops in the region in order to ensure that neither Muslim extremists nor foreign powers (read: China) can disrupt that flow, and also to keep the Middle-Eastern heads of state from getting too uppity (ala Iran). I believe a permanent military presence was part of the plan from the get-go, and I don't think the US will ever withdraw its troops unless it's forced to or an entirely new leadership is elected. More controversially, I think the current US leadership is well aware that competition for oil and other resources will be the name of the game for the foreseeable future, and wanted to get a head start.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:49 pm
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I dont think its a matter of if a civil war breaks out, its when. And when is soon. How do we stop it, we don't, we can't, ain't gonna work. We have already done this once, you would think the US would not have forgotten Nam so quickly.

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