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halplm
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:51 pm
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It depends on if the iraqi people can be convinced (of the truth) that these are stratigic hits to try and incite them into civil war.

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 9:52 pm
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you would think...

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 10:29 pm
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Hal

American truth is completely different than Iraqi truth. And there in lies the problem.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 10:34 pm
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Sorry Yov but I don't care why we went to war.
I don't know how anybody can say that when...
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I think we should have gone because it will be better for the iraqi people in the long run.
...what goals we succesfully accomplish depend on what our goals are in the first place. Though I don't really buy the oil thing as one of our goals, I find it vastly more plausible than the goal of helping the iraqis. There are way better ways to help people all over the world...not just the middle east.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 10:43 pm
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Yov

I agree. I find it strange that we are not helping certain peoples of African nations, where dictactors have killed many many more citizens.

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 11:09 pm
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I didn't say there weren't other ways or places to help.. I was just answering your question...

and as for the why we went to war part... I again meant it in respose to your question.. obviously I think the Govt should have been more accurate and given us better reasons than WMD's. I just meant in this context it doesnt matter to me anymore what the reasons were.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 11:19 pm
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Okay, gimli (not trying to pick on you or get argumentative, really!), perhaps you'd find it more relevant to ask: Why do people think we are there now?
I don't know the answer to that question either.


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 11:28 pm
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We're there now, because if we weren't there WOULD be civil war, and insurgents, and in all likelihood a return to some dictatorship...

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 11:33 pm
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yovargas wrote:
Okay, gimli (not trying to pick on you or get argumentative, really!), perhaps you'd find it more relevant to ask: Why do people think we are there now?
I don't know the answer to that question either.
No harm Yov..

and Yes I think thats a more important question for the moment... However... Bush and Co definatly need to answer for how we got there in the first place SOMEDAY.. I don't know if its a good use of time and resourses to worry about it while out troops are still fighting but it needs to be solved.

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Fri 24 Feb , 2006 11:35 pm
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halplm wrote:
We're there now, because if we weren't there WOULD be civil war, and insurgents, and in all likelihood a return to some dictatorship...

yes but if we weren't there to begin with, Sadam would be in power... sucks for the iraqi's but as hindsight is 20/20, I'd say thats a better position than the one at the moment. At least it's not civil war...


I honestly felt it was the right thing for the US to be there to remove Saddam.. Now I am not so sure... given the insurgency...

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halplm
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Posted: Sat 25 Feb , 2006 1:35 am
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if they do end up with a civil war, it will be bad, no doubt... but it may still turn out better than leaving saddam there... such things are hard to judge and really can't be fore decades...

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Sat 25 Feb , 2006 1:36 am
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tis true tis true..... one can only hope things get better... I don't see how they can as long as there is an insurgency still doing damage though.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sat 25 Feb , 2006 4:01 pm
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Ted Koppel wrote an article entitled "Will Fight For Oil" in the Friday New York Times in which he systematically argued that oil has been the heart of nearly every major US foreign policy decision for decades. Regarding the assertion that Iraq was not about oil: "it would have been the first time in more than 50 years that the uninterrupted flow of Persian Gulf oil was not a central element of American foreign policy." Unfortunately, you need to be a paid subscriber to access the article online. If you are one, it's here. If not, you can read a (Democratic slanted) review of it and its implications here.

A bonus from the Tom Paine review. This is a quote from Dick Cheney during Gulf War I:
Sec. of Defense Dick Cheney wrote:
"We're there because the fact of the matter is that part of the world controls the world supply of oil, and whoever controls the supply of oil, especially if it were a man like Saddam Hussein, with a large army and sophisticated weapons, would have a stranglehold on the American economy and on — indeed on the world economy."
The US went to Iraq in order to maintain control over Persian Gulf oil. All the hype about fighting terrorism and spreading democracy was just to appease consciences.





Edit: Here are a few paragraphs I found from the Koppel article:
Quote:
Let us, as lawyers say, stipulate that the Bush administration was genuinely concerned that weapons of mass destruction, which they firmly believed to be in Saddam Hussein's arsenal, might be shared with the same Qaeda leadership that planned the horrific events of 9/11. That would have been a reasonable motive for invading Iraq; but surely now, three years later, when the existence of those weapons is no longer an issue, it would be insufficient reason for the United States to remain there.

Let us further acknowledge that continuing to put American lives at risk in Iraq purely for the protection of Israel would arouse, in some quarters, anti-Semitic murmurs, if not growls.

But the Bush administration's touchiness about charges that we acted — and are still acting — in Iraq "because of oil"? Now that's curious. Keeping oil flowing out of the Persian Gulf and through the Strait of Hormuz has been bedrock American foreign policy for more than a half-century.

Fifty-three years ago, British and American intelligence officers conspired to help bring about the overthrow of Iran's prime minister, Mohammed Mossadegh. Mossadegh's shortcomings, in the eyes of Whitehall and the State Department, were an unseemly affinity for the Tudeh Party (the Iranian Communists) and his plans to nationalize the Iranian oil industry. The prospect of the British oil industry being forced to give way to Soviet influence over the Iranian oil spigot called for drastic action. Following a military coup, Mossadegh was arrested, imprisoned for three years and then held under house arrest until his death in 1967. Power was then effectively concentrated in the hands of Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi.
Edit again: Z-Net has a review up now too. They argue that it's not so much about control over the oil as control over the nations who want the oil.


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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Sun 26 Feb , 2006 9:50 am
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Dave_LF wrote:
The US went to Iraq in order to maintain control over Persian Gulf oil. All the hype about fighting terrorism and spreading democracy was just to appease consciences.
Why is fighting for oil necessarily a bad or unworthy thing?

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yovargas
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Posted: Sun 26 Feb , 2006 2:04 pm
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Why is fighting for oil necessarily a bad or unworthy thing?
Would you be willing to die so that I could get gasoline?


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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sun 26 Feb , 2006 3:51 pm
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Lord_Morningstar wrote:
Dave_LF wrote:
The US went to Iraq in order to maintain control over Persian Gulf oil. All the hype about fighting terrorism and spreading democracy was just to appease consciences.
Why is fighting for oil necessarily a bad or unworthy thing?
Aha! As prices rise, I think more and more of the current "no blood for oil" crowd will begin seriously asking that question. I think in some cases, fighting for resources is acceptable. My problems in this case are 1) they weren't upfront about what they were really doing, and continue peddling their half-baked explanations even though no one's buying it anymore 2) if oil is becoming scarce, we should adjust our lifestyles to reflect that reality rather than fighting wars to preserve the status quo just a little longer 3) it won't work anyway.


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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Thu 02 Mar , 2006 1:47 am
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Those are all true. Personally, while I don’t have an issue with a country fighting to secure the resources that it needs to survive, I still think that the Iraq war was a bad move.

There are certainly situations that I can see where a war over oil would need to be fought. For example, if the House of Al-Saud fell in Arabia and a strongly anti-Western fundamentalist Government came to power, then I think that ousting it would probably become pretty necessary pretty fast. That would be difficult with the US so heavily engaged in Iraq, but it might need to be done.

Still, changing lifestyles is definatley the better option.

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