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Another search warrant situation

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 12:42 pm
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So am I the only one who finds the 911 call a significant point here? I'm the only one bringing it up.


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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 12:48 pm
 
 
Lurker, now I understand your point. Is that a risk yes, however, the portion about the other people came from the court, not the cops. In the one question you have w/ four intruders and one cop, then you would back off and call the SWAT unit.

Something else that is not covered by the court case is what kind of neighborhood this is. I can tell you in my neighborhood, shots fired=bad. But you see that is not important to the court.

Watcher, Don't worry, I know exactly how much power I have. What other job can you take away someone's rights without a trial. I do not take this lightly, and niether does anyone else in my department. I can tell you this, at my department we understand that we are responsible for our actions. I am currently in the Professional Standards Unit (ie: Internal Affairs) and handle the complaints that come in. I investigate all complaints that come in. If we break a window or fence during a police operation, we pay to repair it.

Remember, too that the majority of what you see and read has been censored to provide controversy. That's what sells papers and air time.

I am in no way saying that there are no bad apples out there, because there are. I for one would like to get them out and bring in good. With that being said, I think if you take a real look you will see that it is about 5% bad out of thousand of cops.

As far as good people, 90% of the people I deal with are good people and that's why I do my job. I love helping people no matter the reason.

Is my job easy no, but the reason for early retirement is that this is a young man/woman's job. At the age of 55,60,65 it's tough to fight with a 20 something that is intent on hurting you or trying to chase one that just stole a purse.

feredir


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Jude
Post subject: Re: Another search warrant situation
Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 2:12 pm
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I say they were right to force entry. How could the officers know that someone just out of sight wasn't holding a gun on the residents and telling them to tell the police they were okay? That's what I would have thought - otherwise, why didn't they answer the door at first, and why did someone call 911?
Feredir wrote:
Officers are sent to an address on shots fired.
I assume that's police lingo for being sent to an address because someone reported shots being fired? You're going to have to get into the habit of translating for us when you use it. :P

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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 4:05 pm
 
 
Yes, that means gun shots being fired. Sorry, I know better but old habits die hard :oops:


Yes, I believe that the 911 call absolutely plays a part in the thought process.

Please also understand that this decision does not make new law. The decisions made are built upon previous court cases.

They do make for good discusion. I appreciate everyones input because it helps to keep me in touch with what non-law enforcement/lawyer people think.


feredir


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tinwe
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 4:21 pm
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Feredir wrote:
Something else that is not covered by the court case is what kind of neighborhood this is. I can tell you in my neighborhood, shots fired=bad. But you see that is not important to the court.

This is what first caught my attention. Where I live it is against the law to fire a gun within the city limits and within 1000 feet of a house outside of the city limits. If this incident occurred in a rural are where gunfire is common for hunting or protecting livestock then I could understand the problem with entering the house or searching the backyard. Short of that though, it would seem to me that any gunfire would be reason for suspicion, and just coming to the window to say you’re alright is not enough.

Did the cops ask the occupants of the house to come to the door after they said they were alright? If they did, and the occupants refused, I think there was justifiable reason to forcibly enter.


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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 5:13 pm
 
 
It says that they still refused to open the door so I would have to say yes, they were advised to come to the door and open it.

The case is from Bay City Michigan. The following was found on their website: (from 2002) Population 36,400; avg. income $53,283; median age is males 38.7 and female 36.9. They are the county seat. It appears to be a blend of business and community.

With this info I think it is safe to say a shots fired call would be out of the ordinary.


feredir


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 7:19 pm
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I also think they were right to go in.
Feredir wrote:
If we break a window or fence during a police operation, we pay to repair it.
Now that's nice! :D I bet there's a lot of pressure not to be like TV police and cause massive damage during an arrest!
Tinwe wrote:
If this incident occurred in a rural are where gunfire is common for hunting or protecting livestock then I could understand the problem with entering the house or searching the backyard.
At my (rural) place you can find spent cartridges all over outside. We target shoot and/or hunt several times per year. One wouldn't have to look hard to find shells there! However, also in keeping with rural traditions, we also go outside to greet anyone who drives up to our house. There wouldn't be any of this talk through a window at someone! :roll: And we wouldn't refuse a police officer a look through our house, either, if they had some sort of worry- especially if there had been a 911 call to explain. You just don't antagonize people that way! It's not nice.

Last edited by MariaHobbit on Fri 31 Mar , 2006 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 7:20 pm
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Feredir -

Sorry it took me a bit to get back to you. Of course, I would hope that you do realize how much power and authority you can weild in your position. It sounds like you have a very sane perspective on it. I live in a community that for some reason took it upon itself (it is a very wealthy one, and also is smack dab in the middle of the most conservative county in the state of Wisconsin) to start zealously enforcing certain typse of laws that mainly deal with disputes, even those that are basically non-threatening, but because of a law on Wisconsin books, it basically states that even the mention of a threat of violence requires one party to be arrested. A very good friend of mine, albeit a bit younger, recently got charged under this statute for pounding on the hood of the car of her ex-husband, who had deliberately provoked her by showing up in her driveway with his girlfriend in the front seat of the car when he was dropping off their two kids, aged 5 and 9. When she asked to talk to her ex privately away from the girlfriend and the kids, the GF started verbally assaulting her, and then things escalated. No blows were exchanged, but she (my friend) did end up pounding on the hood of the car, demanding that the kids be let out and that the ex and the gf leave. The gf called the police, my friend was arrested with disorderly conduct, and now she, on top of everything else, needs to go through anger management classes and parenting classes, since the divorce was not final, plus whatever court costs are incurred. And the sad thing is, she still has primary placement of the kids, but the ex still gets to pick them up and flaunts his new gf in the children's faces, and apparantly, him doing this is in no way prohibited. :(

I also have had numerous experiences with our local finest due to my oldest daughter, now 20 and thankfully out of the house. They NEVER helped me with the situation when she lived here, she was disruptive, refused to go to school many days, would sneak her boyfriend in through the windows at all hours of the night, physically assaulted me several times, and all my pleas to the local police went in vain. She shoplifted, she stole my credit and debit cards and checks, she used them to order things off of the internet, it never ceased to amaze me what she would do. this started when she was sixteen at the time, and all they would do was tell me to call the county. The county told me to call the local police. When she was 18, all they would do is make her leave for one night. It finally came to blows one night when I told her to get out and threw an empty plastic laundry basket at her. I had already called the cops to make her leave, but when they came, since I had thrown the basket, they took me into custody. The charges were all dropped, but it was so unfair and so completely wrong. Ever since then, I basically do not trust our local or county law enforcement people farther than I can spit. I am glad that you are of a different breed.

BTW, it was interesting when I got my "charges" from our county DA. Only my daughter's version was in the complaint, not mine nor her brother who was there at the time and aged 16. When we introduced THAT side of the equation, as I said, the charges were dropped, and their advice to supposedly help me? File for a formal eviction and pay for it. This for an adult kid who paid no rent. It cost me $300 plus some minor court costs to kick out a kid who had no legal right to be staying there free to begin with, and was the one starting the havoc for which they tried to charge me.

So, like I say, even my most conservative and Republican father thinks that the politics and the law enforcement in our neck of the woods (city and county) stink. I am glad to see that it is not so in other places. Please forgive me if I sounded like I was ranting or bitter, I am not. We have a very contentious mayoral election coming up next week, and there are further allegations of idiotic and poor performance not to mention corruption and insider dealing on the part of our county elected officials. I hope that this bodes for better choices all around going forward here. But charges ever being filed or an investigation? HAHAHAHAHAHA!

If you want to know what county I reside in, just remember the travesty of a case that we had here several years ago when Mark Chmura (the GB Packer player) was charged with sexual misconduct and statutory rape for his hot tub accusations. The idiot leading the prosecution is the same idiot county DA still in charge. The only reason he never gets booted out is that noone will run against him, the county is that tied together politically - a basically inpenatrable shield. Most of the time during elections, there is only one name on the ballot with the choice "none" being the alternative. We have not had a Democrat or Independant hold office here for at least fifty years (county, city) and we are one county removed from Milwaukee, the most liberal next to Dane (the county seat of Madison) in the state. :scratch:

Rant over!! I am sure things are MUCH better where you are!! Even my BIL works as a senior police officer in a different county, he also said he would not want to work in most municipalities here, even though he lives in the same county as I do. :D

And, just to add to my recollection, the average ages of the local police persons employed here is in the younger twenties. The last yahoo that we had over here due to my daughter did not even know what county this city is located in - he told me I needed to call Milwaukee County to get my requested assistance. :( :rage: :Q :neutral:

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Feredir
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Posted: Fri 31 Mar , 2006 8:21 pm
 
 
OUCH. That stuff happens, unfortunately. The problem we run into here is the fact that the juvenile court system doesn't act. We had one kid that had been CONVICTED of 15 auto thefts, so they place him on home arrest. He sneaks out, gets his girlfriend, steals another car. Wrecks that car while running from the police. Steals another car and comes home. While at home he steals several hundred dollars from his sister and leaves town. He is finally caught in a sand dune in Yuma, CA. The court says "Get him a bus ticket and send him back home". I can't make this stuff up.

Ohio has the same kind of residency law. Anyone who lives there, even for one day is now a resident. Even a kid who just turns 18, gotta evict them. We seldom any issues because people see the light and move out.

As far as Domestic Violence laws go. Ohio's is pretty strict but doesn't have a mandatory arrest, that's left up to the individual PD. We have it as preferred to arrest but to not arrest requires a supervisor's permission.

As far as the PD, that's a training issue. We hold ourselves to a high standard. Not to sound arrogant but we are one of the top in the state. I have nothing to do with that, I'm simply a part of the unit. When I hired on there was over 700 applicants for the job.

feredir


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The Watcher
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Posted: Sat 01 Apr , 2006 6:56 pm
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You give me hope!! :D Actually, my BIL has also been a source of much of my info and a total godsend in terms of dealing with some of this muck. I only wish that the city and county here where I live would wake up and smell the coffee, so to speak. It is here a system where politics hold complete sway, and I know that there are also many GOOD police people and county officials who are completely frustrated by what goes on here.

I had a minor incident here just a matter of weeks ago with my now 17 year old son. The police gave him a chance to "make it better" and I had to come as his mother to the meeting. They were more than nice, and if he holds up his end, the tickets and charges he would be facing will all be dropped. So far, it has gone very well, and in THIS situation, the police have actually been an aid rather than a hindrance. When I mentioned our notorious county DA, because I was not swayed by the claims of the tickets all being dropped, they both groaned and were in total agreement with me. I might add that these were older police persons, and had specific tasks assigned to them as opposed to being beat/patrol cops.

So, there IS hope!! As far as you original cited case, all I can say is that if I were in that situation as a police person, I would have thought something was fishy when the residents refused to come to the door. I also still am unclear in how the 911 call played into this, since at least here, those calls require an automatic follow up. Given a murky situation, yes, I can see where fear for a hostage situation or something else ugly might have been suspected. What the proper response should be is only one that can be viewed in hindhsight. If we did not have individuals who WERE guilty of the most terrible acts taking advantage of these situations to the detriment of all of the rest of us, such situations probably would not exist. SIGH

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Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 miles per second, is a cow that has been dropped from a helicopter.

Never under any circumstances take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

- Dave Barry


Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
Supermassive Black Hole.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Tue 04 Apr , 2006 2:46 am
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yovargas wrote:
So am I the only one who finds the 911 call a significant point here? I'm the only one bringing it up.
Yep, you are. The call was not made by anyone in the house, and the residents are the most likely to know their own needs, not the neighbor.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Tue 04 Apr , 2006 3:31 am
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Well, not quite, CG. There was a previous 911 call from the house, as well as the call from the neighbor about shots fired. So, yes, the 911 call is significant, imo. What if the police simply said, "Well, okay, if you say there's nothing wrong (from the window, mind you), then I guess it must be" and then later found out that someone out of view was holding a gun to the homeowner's head, forcing them to say that? Everyone and his brother would be villifying the police about how they didn't do their job. Darned if they do and darned if they don't. So which is better? To err on the side of safety or supposed property rights? The homeowners should have just come to the door, let them look in, and been done with it. They were the idiots firing guns in their backyard, and they should have just faced the consequences rather than try to hide out.

ETA: I agree with Maria. Since this was not in a rural area, gunshots were out of the ordinary (and illegal) and cause for great suspicion.

Lali

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Feredir
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Posted: Tue 04 Apr , 2006 1:05 pm
 
 
cg, you are assuming the call did not come from inside the house. That's a wrong assumption, they made contact on the earlier call and they said it was children. People lie. I may be able to count on one hand the number of doors I've forced open BUT I cannot tell you the number of "Oops, it was an accident" or"It's was kids playing" or "Wrong number" 911 calls that I've checked and they end up being a domestic violence.

If we lived in an ideal world, I'd agree with you. Reality proves otherwise though.

Feredir


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 04 Apr , 2006 6:27 pm
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Somewhere said that the call did come from the house. I'd say a 911 call cut short is important. Plus, did the cops actually search the backyard or could they see the shells from somewhere not on the property? From feredir's post about the community, I'd say shots fired is something to check out. Maybe at a house in the middle of the woods you'd be less likely to check out shots fired, but not at a place near a business zone. If there is really nothing wrong, I don't see the harm of opening the door to speak with the police who are at your residence because of gunshots and a false 911 call. Don't take that logic as to mean that I think the people were actually guilty of something, though.

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