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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Wed 26 Apr , 2006 7:34 pm
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Elsha wrote:
Would you ever go up to an overweight person and start berating them because they ate fast food?
It's not always clear cut on what causes obesity. I never ate fast food, and was obsessive about eating "healthy" foods, yet I still found myself in the obese catagory eventually.

Metabolic eccentricities can cause all manner of weird problems that even doctors can't figure out the root cause of.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Wed 26 Apr , 2006 7:51 pm
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Also if you eat healthy foods as much as someone who is obese from fast foods does... you'll still be obese. It's a matter of how much you eat coupled with how fast you burn it off.

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Berhael
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Posted: Wed 26 Apr , 2006 8:17 pm
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Lidless wrote:
Berhael wrote:
Anyone who smokes is knowingly endangering their life. Smokers gamble with their own life, therefore, they can't value it very much, can they?
Would this be true too for stuntmen, people who belong in a parachute club, anyone who boards a plane, anyone who swims out to sea, anyone scuba diving, anyone in the armed services, all mountain climbers, race car drivers, anyone who eats at Taco Bell, anyone on a motorbike, anyone in a skateboard competition, anyone who voted Republican...?
Of course, in fact most of those people find it difficult to get life insurance.

Republican voters deserve it. :D

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 26 Apr , 2006 8:27 pm
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Elfshadow wrote:
Would you ever go up to an overweight person and start berating them because they ate fast food? I can't think of a single person who would do that, for fear of hurting the other person. Yet no one seems to have a problem hassling smokers. What makes a smoker deserve less tact and respect than an overweight person?
Because smoking can harm other people than just the smoker. Second-hand smoke can cause cancer and death. An obese person isn't harming anyone but themselves.

I believe anyone has the right to smoke if they wish and they shouldn't be treated as a second-class citizen. There's no need to be rude or condescending toward a smoker. But I do agree with the laws about no smoking in some public places and the division of restaurants because a non smoker has the right not to have their health put at risk. I would expect a smoker to either move or put out their cigarette if I didn't wish to have the smoke around me....though if the smoker was occupying a place first, such as in a public park, it would be my duty to not place myself near them.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Wed 26 Apr , 2006 8:40 pm
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Quote:
Second-hand smoke can cause cancer and death.
Second-hand smoke is linked to cancer, but this correlation does not equal causation.

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elfshadow
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Posted: Wed 26 Apr , 2006 10:52 pm
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Erunáme wrote:
Because smoking can harm other people than just the smoker. Second-hand smoke can cause cancer and death. An obese person isn't harming anyone but themselves.

If someone's cigarette smoke is bothering you, then yes, I believe the smoker should expect to put their cigarette out if you asked respectfully. But there's a difference between asking someone nicely to put out their cigarette and publicly hassling them for smoking. The latter is what I've seen people do, and I don't think people should do it.

Last edited by elfshadow on Thu 27 Apr , 2006 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Onizuka Eikichi
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr , 2006 4:55 am
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Estel wrote:
Whilst I admire your grandmother, keep in mind it took her 40 years to quit.
No: it took her a split second to quit. She willingly continued to smoke for all those years, never thinking about quitting, then decided to just give it up one day. I'm not even sure why. She just did. It wasn't a 40-year process like you hinted at. Split-second decision. Quit like that. *snaps fingers*

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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr , 2006 5:09 am
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Second-hand smoke is linked to cancer, but this correlation does not equal causation.
Dana Reeve recently died of lung cancer. She never smoked.

Oni, my dad quit cold turkey as well. Only took one cancer scare to make him quit for good.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr , 2006 5:37 am
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Facts about secondhand smoke from the National Cancer Institute
Quote:
Secondhand smoke exposure is a known risk factor for lung cancer (1, 3, 4, 6, 7). Approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths occur each year among adult nonsmokers in the United States as a result of exposure to secondhand smoke (2). Secondhand smoke is also linked to nasal sinus cancer (1, 4). Some research suggests an association between secondhand smoke and cancers of the cervix, breast, and bladder. However, more research is needed in order to confirm a link to these cancers (3, 4, 8).
I am not saying that secondhand smoke isn't a risk factor for lung cancer, but it is not a proven cause.

Don't get me wrong about secondhand smoke either. I am not all for it, nor do I think it's okay (though it doesn't bother me). If a smoker lights up next to you in a place he shouldn't, then you should ask the smoker to extinguish his flame.

Although, I have seen the kind of treatment that Elsha is talking about. I am friends with a number of smokers, and I wouldn't yell at them about their cigarettes, but I have asked them to keep the smoke out of my face before.

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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr , 2006 6:18 pm
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USA

On average, state tax on cigarettes is USD 0.80 for every packet of 20. It varies wildly from state to state, from USD 0.17 in Missouri to USD 2.46 in Rhode Island (even though it takes the time to smoke just one cigarette to walk cross it).

There is also the sales tax to consider. This also varies wildly from state to state (in some states cigarettes are exempt from sales tax), but on average, sales tax is about USD 0.16 per pack.

On top of that there is federal tax of USD 0.39 on a packet of cigarettes.

So overall, on average USD 1.35 is paid in taxes per packet.

According to WHO, 450 billion cigarettes were sold in the US last year, and according to the IRS, about 25% were sold from tax free zones. This translates to 16.8 billion packets of tax-paid cigarettes were sold in the US.

So in total, smokers fund state and federal government to the tune of around USD 23bn. In other words, 7% of the entire cost of Medicare (USD 333bn). I haven't even bothered to include the US tax on profits the companies make, income tax paid by the US workers etc...

Even ignoring the savings in the reduction in both pension costs and old age / long term Medicare costs due to early deaths, I find it hard to believe that 7% of all Medicare costs are smoking related.

In other words, I think we cover our (financial) costs.


UK

In the UK there is the glorious NHS. The total cost of the NHS is around USD 160bn and tax income from cigarettes (where the duty is around USD 4.50 per pack) is USD 17bn (ie, 11% of the cost of the NHS).

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr , 2006 7:58 pm
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Sounds like it would be a lot cheaper to roll your own.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr , 2006 8:27 pm
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A number of smokers I've known have said exactly that. Laziness kept some of them from continuing to roll their own.

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TWT
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Posted: Thu 27 Apr , 2006 9:52 pm
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Glad to see this thread still rollin' so to speak.

How much per pack is it in the States?

Here in Canada the tax on cigarettes is incredibly high and we still don't cover the costs. On average a pack of cigarettes here costs around $10 per pack of 25.

They estimate that, in Canada, the societal costs attributable to smoking for 1993 were approximately $11 billion, of which $3 billion was spent on direct health care costs such as hospitalization and physician time. The remaining $8 billion was due to lost productivity. In comparison, it is estimated that in 1993/94, revenue from taxes on cigarettes totalled $2.6 billion.

Click on this link, it contains a very interesting article that shows the rising cost of cigarette smokers and shows how they DON'T cover there own costs as was suggested.

Last edited by TWT on Fri 05 May , 2006 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wilma
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 3:23 am
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The article goes into how doctors psycologically view obese patients. Even in a case a doctor mentioned an obese patient ate fewer calories then most thin people do. Yet, they are still obese. The view is not pretty or kind. They also mention the insensitivity of some doctors when broaching the subject of weight.

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 5:09 am
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Erunáme wrote:
TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Second-hand smoke is linked to cancer, but this correlation does not equal causation.
Dana Reeve recently died of lung cancer. She never smoked.
Here is the thing about cancer: everyone is at risk. All of us. We all have cells, and any one of those cells could go completely haywire at any given time. This risk is, generally speaking, pretty damn low, but it is there, and it can and will bite people in the ass (something my family knows all too well). HOWEVER, there are things, like cigarette smoke, asbestos fibers, radon, benzene, xylene, carbon tetrachloride, ionizing radiation, sunshine, age, etc. that increase your chances of getting cancer so much that it's pretty safe to say they caused the DNA damage that made the cancer happen. Further, certain carcinogens can be linked to specific cancers. Mesothilioma, for example, is a type of lung cancer that is pretty much a red flag for asbestos exposure. So, in a nutshell, you can get lung cancer without being a smoker or being around smokers. However, if you are a smoker, your risk for lung cancer sky rockets. I won't say it's guaranteed, but it's there.

The one thing I find strange about smoking discussions is how everyone leaps on lung cancer. Okay, cancer really sucks, but people can and do survive cancer. No one survives emphysema, and breathing smoke for too long pretty much guarantees that one. It's a long slow death by suffocation, assuming some other complication doesn't get you first.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 2:31 pm
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River wrote:
We all have cells, and any one of those cells could go completely haywire at any given time.
I've read they do go haywire quite often, but most of the time your immune system quells the mutiny before any problems are noticable.

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Berhael
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 8:25 pm
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An inoffensive aside: I have a few cells that have gone haywire recently. They make one of the hairs in my right eyebrow grow abnormally long and in an odd direction; if I let it grow unchecked, it would do a Gandalf soon and grow over the brim of my hat. :D I've plucked the hair several times and when it grows back it does the same.

Weird. :)

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 8:48 pm
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My husband has several hairs in his eyebrows that do that now! He trims them when he does his hair, but left unchecked, he'd soon have bushy grey eyebrows an inch long or more! I think his physiology got a little bit too attuned to Gandalf when he wore the costume.....
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Of course, it's just as creepy that my toes keep trying to grow curly dark hair the past few years.... :scratch:

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Meril36
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 10:50 pm
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Oh, we're on body hair now? Let me air my woes here. From the top: I grow dark stiff hairs on the corners of my chin, on my neck, in the center of my chest, and on the joints of my toes. (I must be part hobbit, I guess) Plucking them is difficult and painful, and does little good as they grow back really fast. Shaving is similarly ineffective. And it's only gotten worse since I had the baby.

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Sunsilver
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Excellent points, Steve, Jen. It's interesting to hear the other side of the coin.

I am one of those unfortunate people who is very sensitive to tobacco smoke in any form. For years, I was unable to go into a bar and enjoy a beer. It is SUCH a refreshing change to be able to do so now, without coming away gasping for air, and with my eyes red and stinging. There is a local restaurant here in Aurora that hosts a folk night every Tuesday. I love this type of music, and have tried to sit in on a few of these evenings. Unfortunately, they hold them in the section of the bar that is a legally designated smoking area. :bawl: Last time, I lasted about 45 minutes before I had to leave. Even some of the band members are hardcore smokers.

I have seen many family members die from smoking related causes. Jen, they don't hit you when you're young and healthy. I have an uncle right now who's in hospital. He lost a leg to the effects of smoking* many years ago, and is currently dying due to poor circulation and heart failure. I have also had patients who were told, "Oh you quit smoking X number of years ago, your risk of cancer is now pretty much the same as someone who's never smoked." Well, guess what, SUCKAH!! You just won the lottery! The tests show lung cancer, bladder cancer, cancer of the throat, etc. You many argue, "Well, these people are OLD. They've lived their life..." Yeah, but you haven't seen anyone die of cancer the way I have. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

As for medical costs, we all make good and bad health decisions. One of the core values we are taught as nurses is to treat everyone the same, regardless of diagnosis, economic status, colour, creed, or how much they annoy you. One of the things I see most frequently are diabetics who are non-compliant with their treatment regime. Should THEY pay extra taxes because their non-compliance is going to trigger heart disease and circulatory problems as they get older? I don't think so.

Still doen'st stop me from wanting to give them a good shaking.... :salmon:

*He had an arterial graft done in an effort to save the leg. While he was in rehab, his physio pointed out several new amputees who were learning to walk again. "Most of our amputees are either diabetics or smokers. These grafts have a very low success rate for people who smoke."

Was he able to quit after this? No. :roll:

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