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yovargas wrote:

I find the idea that a doctor must treat someone even if they don't particularly want to rather disturbing. Doctor's aren't slaves, they shouldn't have to do any job they don't want to do.

The only doctor that could get away with this is a private practice doctor. Emergency medicine doctors or any of them working in a hospital should not be allowed to deny someone treatment. Let's say there was a doctor on duty in the emergency room and he was the only one available since the rest of his colleagues were busy with other patients. Allowing that doctor to refuse treatment based on something he doesn't like (race, gender, sexuality, other life practices) could have serious consequences.

It suddenly occurred to me that a reading of this might be in order.

Here is an outline I found of the duties of a doctor. I think this is also relevant to the ethical issues presented in this thread.

These are not laws. They are rules that doctors have imposed upon themselves.

ETA: The Declaration of Geneva. The modern Hippocratic Oath.

Tosh wrote:

It's not weird. Nicotine is addictive. The companies know this and adjust the nicotine content of cigarettes for the optimum addictive response. Addiction is supposed to be difficult to overcome; that's what it does.

That's not what I meant. I was trying to persuade her to get the patches as an alternative means of nicotine intake (with no intention of quitting) just to give her lungs a break during the pneumonia. She wouldn't even consider it.

I'd have thought that the means of delivery wouldn't matter that much, as long as one got the drug- but apparently there's an additional element of oral stimulation of the nerves of the lips that cannot be satisfied any other way.

I was talking about this with my father the other day and he said they should get rid of the oath. Few are the people who enter the medical field with a genuine want to improve humanity. Its about the $$$.

And I agree with a heavier tax on smokers. I also agree with a very heavy tax on the cigarette companies.

I too know that there has been endless discrimination against smokers over the years. Here in Canada it is now illigal to smoke indoors anywhere but the privacy of your home. There are no restaraunts or bars anymore where people can smoke, as a result many of these places have gone under. I think there should be "disignated somking zones" so to speak. Ther government should have a number of permits for restaraunts/bars to allow smoking based on the population of the comunity and when the permits run out then no one else can have a place that allows smoking. I'm all for the equal treatment of everyone I just don't look kindly on something when they're reaching into my pocketbook. I don't take advantage of the healthcare system, I haven't been to the doctor in ages, probably years. I don't sacrifice my hospital time for someone else to take advantage of it though.

Already because of risk and whatnot it is mandatory to lose a certain amout of weight or to stop smoking before some types of operations. That isn't seen as discrimination. Why can't other doctors refuse treatment until the person stops smoking. Docs, just like in that plegde, are comitted to improving people's health, I fail to see how letting them continue smoking while saying nothing helps the patient.

I think they should get rid of doctors and would-be doctors who don't take their oath seriously. I don't want mercenaries treating me for illness or injury. One of the reasons I try to avoid seeing doctors is I knew too many pre-meds in college. They all hated science and wanted to get rich. Not people I want cutting me open or feeding me pills. Medecine itse'f is p[retty grueling, both to learn and to practice. THere's easier ways to make money.

The modern-day standards for medical ethics were put into place as a response to events that occurred during WWII. The medical profession has the ghost of Dr. Mangela to deal with, and you're going to have a hard time getting them to swallow the destruction of these standards for any reason. I'm a bit alarmed the Canadians are even willing to chip away at it.

I agree with River. Here in Canada, getting into medical school is tough because it's a scholarship, only the best and the brightest pre-meds get in. My best friend is a doctor and he had to really study twice as hard during his pre-med to get in UofT med school or else he'll have to apply in the US. He got lucky, he got in, but unfortunately, he is an intern in a private hospital in Chicago instead of here. I kept telling him to stay in Canada but salary wise it is better in the US (esp. he wants to be a surgeon), but he's a member of Doctors Without Borders so goes to medical missions in Asia and Africa. Eventhough he does that, he should be helping his country first, right? Charity begins at home. There is a huge brain drain of doctors here, everybody wants to leave for the US, so that's affecting our health care system. A lot family doctors are retiring, only a few are taking their place, most medical students want to be surgeons cause it makes more money.

Anyways,

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Docs, just like in that plegde, are comitted to improving people's health, I fail to see how letting them continue smoking while saying nothing helps the patient.

Unfortuanately, the oath also states "I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age,

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disease or disability

, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient"

That's what I've been trying to reiterate in my posts that if the doctors were payed more money for every consultation I'm sure they won't turn down any patients.

Increasing the taxes on cigarettes puts convenience store workers at risk since it increases the liklihood of them getting robbed by cigarette smugglers.

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Yes, smokers are tax payers as well but they don't pay enough taxes to cover the lengthy treatment needed to keep them alive due to problems caused by their vice.

This is simply wrong.

Here's some things for you to think about -

1. The cost of making a pack of cigs is about USD 33 cents. The amount of tax on top of what a consumer would normally pay for a pack can be up to 6 times what the cost of the pack would be without tax.

-- You say I don't pay enough taxes to cover health care for my smoking habits. I say, I pay four dollars in tax for every pack of cigs I buy, and I know cigs are more expensive in Canada than they are in the U.S. The arguement that smokers don't pay enough tax to cover their habit is complete and utter bull, and yet another excuse from self-righteous non-smokers to treat smokers as second class citizens not worthy of the most basic of human rights - healthcare.

2. A smoker who smokes one and a half packs a day, but also exercises every day is, on average, twice as healthy as a non-smoker who does not exercise every day.

-- I exercise two hours a day, five days a week and eat a healthy diet. I've had one cold in the past three years, and haven't gone to the doctor for any repiratory illness in more than 5 years. I've smoked for ten years, yet never had bronchitus, pnemonia, strepp throat, or anything beyond a simple cold in that time. Yet these doctors would refuse to treat me for any illness that could possibly be related to smoking unless I quit.

To those that think it is ok for doctors to refuse me because I smoke - can you honestly say that you are, on the whole, healthier than I am?

I doubt it.

People who don't smoke, unless they are extreme health nuts, have just as many bad, and perhaps deadly habits as a smoker. Not the same habits, no, but bad habits just the same.


As for "just quitting," you seem to forget that cigs are even more addictive than heroin - quitting is one of the hardest things to do. I did go without food in order to smoke when I was poor. It has taken me almost three months to cut down my smoking by 10 cigs a day. I have quit more times than I could tell you - sometimes for as short as two days, sometimes for as long as six months. I took Zyban in it's other form (Wellbutrin) to help me quit and to fight depression, and that evil horrible drug cause me to have constant panic attacks and gain more than 60 lbs in three months, and more than 100 lbs in the time I was on it. Quitting is hard, very hard.



I'm sick of people making out smokers to be evil.
I'm sick of people who think it is ok to treat smokers like crap and to discriminate against them.
I don't smoke around non-smokers. If a non-smoker comes into an area where I am already smoking and they ask me to put it out, I do. I don't even smoke in my own home for the sake of non-smokers who come to visit. I endure dirty looks from complete strangers who are simply walking by, as if that hint of a smell they got for a split second before the wind swept it away is going to kill them. Any time I dare to smoke within view of the public, I know I'll have to deal with being treated like a pariah. People feel like they don't need to be even slightly polite to smokers. It's the same for every smoker in North America, and now it has become ok to deny smokers health care?!?!



What makes you so much more worthy of life than me?

Is your life worth so much more than mine?

What right do you have to judge who has more of a right to life?



This subject makes me physically sick.

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I'm sick of people making out smokers to be evil.

This non-smoker is too, darlin'. But I expect it to get much worse before it gets any better.

Very well said, Estel!

I have client today that my boss insist that she quit smoking, since she was complaining to me that it was so cold this morning she can't smoke on her balcony. My boss overheard it and said, quit it's good for you. She goes I tried quiting several times, 18 months was the longest and instead I turn to drinking, I became an alcholic to stop my craving. I have no choice but to take up smoking, it's less harmful to me and others.

Those who say quitting is easy, sure, easier said than done!

How about doctors who smoke? Will they be denied healthcare as well? No seriously. My best friend smokes, and he's a doctor, and he knows the risk, but he doesn't care.

The most militant "quit now" person I've ever come across was an ER nurse. He was a former smoker.

I think some of it may depend on how heavy your habit was and how long you were smoking, and there's an individual element in it as well. Some people become addicted to things more easily than others. My boss smoked for four years and quit without any hassles, but he says he only smoked a couple cigarettes a day. One of my coworkers also smoked for a few years and then quit, or, at least, quit tobacco. He's also very militant about quitting. OTOH, there are people who've lost track of how many times they've tried to quit, and others who flat out don't want to.

I try to stay upwind of smokers because I'm mildly allergic to the smoke. Otherwise, I let the smokers be. I don't like seeing any group being treated like second class citizens.

Lurker, I used to volunteer for an ambulance squad. I saw with my own eyes what emphysema, heart disease, chronic bronchitis, and a host of other smoking-related illnesses do to people. We all did. Yet most of the paramedics and fellow EMTs I worked with smoked. The ones who didn't were pretty militant about not smoking. The ones who did called themselves the Cancer Team. But I got to be honest, there were a few calls I took where, afterwards, if someone had offered me a cigarette I might have taken one, even though I have never smoked and don't plan to start. Coming off massive amounts of adrenaline is not exactly the world's most pleasant feeling.

I worked for a doctor once who smoked. Once when we were in the break room together at the same time, he said that if I EVER told one of his patients that he smoked, I'd be fired immediately.

I found a new job soon after that. I didn't mind him smoking, but I didn't like the attitude, and I certainly didn't like the job.

Has anyone read the article? In the case of smoking the patient hadn't been denied treatement until after about 2 or 3 procedures were done. The reason they did not heal him was because of the smoking. The doctor rather then doing another procedure in that same area just gave up since the patient did not understand (in this case) that it was the smoking that prevented him from getting better. My dad has been a patient of the Orhtopedic and Arthritic hospital in Toronto and he has seen patients who optioned to have an amputation rather then quitting smoking.

The thing with this article (on thesurface anyway) is that it's a very evry slippery slope when you start picking and choosing who deserves health care and aho dosen't.

Some people just don't have the self-control and\or willpower to quit smoking or drinking or whatever "bad habit" they may have. It's as simple as that. My grandmother who had been smoking for something like 40 years just gave it up cold turkey one day. It can be done.

Back on topic. Any tax-subsidized system is just begging for issues like these.

Like free higher-education in Germany. Anyone can go, limited seats, poor-performers are kicked out to make room. To me, that seems perfectly fair: if you aren't going to be serious about it, get out of the way of those who will be. There are lots of people who would disagree with me.

Same thing with the healthcare in Canada. If you aren't going to be part of the solution (to your problems) I don't believe you should be entitled to the same (healthcare) rights as someone else. But I do agree that flat-out refusing treatment is a bit extreme.

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Some people just don't have the self-control and\or willpower to quit smoking or drinking or whatever "bad habit" they may have. It's as simple as that.

I can't even comment on this statement without sounding like an utter bitch. I've been trying for almost 20 minutes, and I just can't word it without immense amounts of sarcasm and anger. The first part of the statement was alright, and did contain a grain of truth. The "it's as simple as that," on the other hand was just about the most sanctimonious baloney I've heard in a long time. Whilst I admire your grandmother, keep in mind it took her 40 years to quit.


As for the seond part of that post...


I don't think that older men or women who never worked a job in their life (stay at home parents, etc) should get social security / pensions . They obviously never cared enough about their life performance and didn't bother trying to be part of the solution (paying for their own retirement) - therefore, they shouldn't be entitled to the same retirement rights as people who worked and paid into social security.

Oh, and I think that all the taxes smokers pay on their cigs should go only into health care for smokers and not for non-smokers. See how much non-smokers enjoy their healthcare then. I think that would take away more money than their system could handle.










Edit: I'm out of this discussion now. I always forget how frustrating this forum can be, and I'm having enough difficulties in real life, that I don't need to be adding in debates and arguments.

Estel wrote:

What makes you so much more worthy of life than me?

Is your life worth so much more than mine?

What right do you have to judge who has more of a right to life?



This subject makes me physically sick.

Anyone who smokes is knowingly endangering their life. Smokers gamble with their own life, therefore, they can't value it very much, can they?

Mind you, I know my diet is not particularly anti-cancer, so I'm aware that I'm gambling with my health and life, too.

Smoking makes me physically sick. I try not to be sanctimonious, but the smell of smoke makes me want to retch.

Nothing is easy to quit. There are plenty of bad habits beyond drinking and smoking. Ever asked a nail bitter how difficult it is to stop?

Also, the article (if anyone actually read it) also included drinkers and particulary obese people. In fact the article spent more time on discussing the case with obese patients then on smokers or drinkers.

As we can see by the obesity rates in the US and Canada instanly eating healthier and exercising is not as simple as that. not to mention genetic reasons for obesity and genetic reasons for addictions.

It seems cut and dry but it isn't.

Berhael wrote:

Smoking makes me physically sick. I try not to be sanctimonious, but the smell of smoke makes me want to retch.

Me too. I definitely defend people's right to do what they want with their body, but every time I walk by someone who's smoking I have to hold my breath or I'll start coughing uncontrollably. I'm very sensitive to cigarette smoke. Oddly though, I don't seem to get the same reaction from cigar or pipe smoke. I don't know why. So in my perfect world, smokers would only smoke pipes or cigars.

Morgan Spurlock, the director of "Supersize Me", brought up what I thought was a very good point about how we as a society treat different bad habits. Think about it. Would you ever go up to an overweight person and start berating them because they ate fast food? I can't think of a single person who would do that, for fear of hurting the other person. Yet no one seems to have a problem hassling smokers. What makes a smoker deserve less tact and respect than an overweight person? Both smoking and obesity can cause damage to the body. It's not our place to judge a friend or a stranger based on a bad habit. For both overweight people and smokers, and anyone with a self-destructive habit (and we all have them), there can be circumstances involved which we, the observer, know absolutely nothing about. Simple respect and understanding will go a long way towards helping people do what is best for their bodies and for themselves. Condescending disapproval will do nothing.

Berhael wrote:

Anyone who smokes is knowingly endangering their life. Smokers gamble with their own life, therefore, they can't value it very much, can they?

Would this be true too for stuntmen, people who belong in a parachute club, anyone who boards a plane, anyone who swims out to sea, anyone scuba diving, anyone in the armed services, all mountain climbers, race car drivers, anyone who eats at Taco Bell, anyone on a motorbike, anyone in a skateboard competition, anyone who voted Republican...?