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The Penultimate Question

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: The Penultimate Question
Posted: Mon 24 Apr , 2006 8:34 pm
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One of the numerous philosophical topics that interest me is "the meaning of life". I consider it an important idea that people should mull over at least once in a while. So, here it is for b77: what is the meaning of life?

Wikipedia's article

There are, as the wikipedia artcle illustrates, a wide variety of considerations to answer this broad question. Religion, philosophy and science all attempt to answer the question with some degree of authority (depending on the view), although the enigmatic nature of the question always leaves it open.

What do you think is the meaning of life? You can describe it in relation to one of the views on wikipedia or in your own way, whichever suits you.

I have grown to embrace a more existential or absurdist answer to the 2nd great question. Life is inherently without meaning. We create any and all meaning in our lives because we're the only ones who actually care what it means. A hurricane smashes into the coastline with little care for the impending death and damage, but without malice. It smashes into the coastline because that is what hurricanes do (always a cop-out answer). Life is nothing more than a series of events built upon preceding events (very much deterministic). You end up in the hospital because you got hit by the car because you failed to look both ways because you rushing to make a meeting you were late to because you didn't hear your alarm because you were out drinking the previous night and in a drunken slumber because you were celebrating your best friend proposing to his girlfriend of five years . . . etc, etc. It has nothing to do with fate, destiny, the norns or god.

This isn't to say that I don't find value in the things I do, or the jobs I work, but I don't pretend that it isn't me creating the meaning in them. You find meaning in what you give meaning.

***********

I hope people have some desire to disucss this topic here. I will admit a little bit of envy that spiritual and philosophical discussions do seem to flourish over at HoF. I would like for b77 to have some as well.

***********

Alternate answer to the penultimate question: 42 or 47 if you like Star Trek: TNG. ;) That's right, I'm stealing the Doulgas Adams answer before anyone else uses that as their entire post. :P

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vison
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Posted: Mon 24 Apr , 2006 9:00 pm
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Why "penultimate"? What follows?

Just asking, because "penultimate" means the second-last, not the last. :)

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Mon 24 Apr , 2006 9:08 pm
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I know. ;) I'll explain that after dinner.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr , 2006 3:32 am
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The reason I called this the penultimate question was because I think "what is the ultimate question" is in essense the ultimate question. There are many questions that we ask ourselves with regards to everything we know. What is the meaning of life is one. What happens when we die is another. How can I be independently weathly is a third. Et cetera.

Obviously, I don't expect anyone to agree with me here and it really doesn't matter since I'd rather discuss the meaning of life with people.

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Meril36
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr , 2006 4:45 am
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Didn't Monty Python make a movie about the meaning of life?

Oh yeah, and just to reiterate, 42.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr , 2006 5:31 am
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:poke: :roll:

Goodnight thread.

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Lidless
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr , 2006 1:09 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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It has always been claimed by the thousands of religions that have come and gone throughout the ages that they have the answer to "what is the meaning of life?"

What they are saying has nothing to do with the meaning of living, other than life is a preparation for the after-life. That they all have their own versions of this 'joyful' event is evidence enough for the casting of some doubt on whether spending ones whole life in preparation for death and beyond is indeed a wise course of action.

There was a professor of philosophy at Cambridge whose lectures were extremely difficult to understand - luckily, I studied mathematics instead. One of his essay questions at the end of the first year was "Has life a meaning?" One of his essay questions at the end of the third year was "Has 'Has life a meaning?' a meaning?"

Basically, don't ask, "What is the meaning of life?" There is no inherent answer. Instead, ask what is the meaning of YOUR life. And this is not something you discover. It is something you invent.

It is up to you. Let nobody else tell you how to spend your life (within the law). Life is a party, which does not last for ever, though you may think it does, and you have been given an invitation by your parents.

Go out and enjoy.

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oldtoby
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Posted: Tue 25 Apr , 2006 1:50 pm
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Meril36 wrote:
Didn't Monty Python make a movie about the meaning of life?
hehe yup :D
Quote:
"M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
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Elian
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Posted: Wed 26 Apr , 2006 3:28 am
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The meaning of life is to live. What other possible meaning could there be?


In other words, what Lidless said. ;)

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 5:23 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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What Elian and Liddy said :D

The meaning of life is what you make of it.

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 7:25 am
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meaning of life, eh?

From an entirely Christian perspective I'll offer this.

God gives us life. He offers ust he opportunity to make what we will of that life, with only one "ultimate" question posed to us. That question is to accept him or not. Either choice leads to many options and the choice doesn't mean we will or won't be fullfilled, it just leads to our ultimate fate...

So we could make the wrong choice, feel fullfilled, and still mean our ultimate fate is negative... or we could make the rightr choice, feel fullfilled, and our ultitimate fate would still be positive...

The point is... we can have a "meaning of life" path that does much good.... but if the purpose of that path is our own glory, we are not doing much... if it is for God's glory, then we might just understand the "meaning of life" and we will act accordingly...

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 1:46 pm
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As far as I am concerned, "What is the meaning of life?" is a nonsense question. As long as there are distinct individual entities with distinct individual minds, there will never be a single meaning of life.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 4:21 pm
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Wolfgangbos wrote:
As far as I am concerned, "What is the meaning of life?" is a nonsense question. As long as there are distinct individual entities with distinct individual minds, there will never be a single meaning of life.
Ah but your answer suggests there is meaning to life. Maybe not a single meaning, but meaning nonetheless.
So lets draw that out a bit.
Can it be stated that your view is such that the universe was not one big happy accident? Not just so much gas belched forth from wherever, coalesced then erupted into matter strewn across vastly huge amounts of nearly empty space? Including of course one tiny rock planet just the right distance from a tiny star? Where poppies bloom and silly actors prance about wearing Arthurian get ups saying "Ni"?

Sounds like a lot of coincidence to me.
So therefore can we suggest that there is/was a purpose to this whole creation/accident?

Life is in the living, but there is some kind of ulterior motive, mission, quest thingy going on. I think it is hidden within us somewhere among our instincts. Which at times gets bewildered and confused by all that is happening around us.

As for Hal's assertion, I was brought up to believe the very same thing.
He may be right, but if that is the case then the majority of the planet has been disavowed.
More people than not believe in a higher power. Does it really matter who or what that power is?

In a sort of half assed conclusion, I think that there is some meaning or purpose, and this isn't some kind of remote accident.
I also believe that we really were not meant to be able to conceive such things and that religions are merely man's way of filling in the void.

So yes there is meaning and purpose but it beats the hell out of me exactly what that is.
The Knights of Columbus, the Knights of the Round Table, and the Knights who say "Ni" are equally deserving as far as I am concerned.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 4:49 pm
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Perhaps the universe is not as accidental as you suggest, holby. I can't fathom that life was guided by some mystical force with some particular goal. Many things happens because of what preceded them, regardless of goals. As opposed to all life on Earth as we know it being the result of a cosmic accident, perhaps it is a result of a series of events that took place since the beginning (if there is a beginning). Sure, it sounds like there could be a goal, but that goal is self-imposed by humans because we are creatures who can fathom goals and foreseeable ends to things-- the universe might not foresee an end, just a continuance until . . .

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 6:51 pm
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Holby,

I have made no conclusions on the origins of the universe. I am no more qualified to form conclusions on that matter than I am to form conclusions on how long Kublai Khan's nose hairs were upon his thirtieth birthday. When I have a Ph.D in theoretical physics, then we'll talk. :)

Perhaps the universe does have a creator? Perhaps something set things in motion with some sort of intent? But that does not necessitate that the motivations and purposes of this prime mover of sorts are any more important than the motivations and purposes of any other living thinking dreaming loving being - in any objective sense that is.

As an example, let's say that I somehow manage to create a 1-inch tall man. My intent in creating this person is that he can clean out my belly button lint easier than I can. But this person has dreams and desires of his own. He wants to become an artist. Is the fact that I am his creator enough to warrant that my intent for his life be more important than his? Is the meaning that I hold for him more important than his own?

I find myself having to agree with Immanuel Kant here, in that the very fact that my creation is an autonomous being immediately requires that his own conception of the meaning of for his life trump mine.

Though the difference in intellect and power are much more significant for man and his supposed creator, I fail to see that principle changing regardless of the scale.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 28 Apr , 2006 8:16 pm
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Well first of all Wolfie, you are every bit as qualified to speak about such things as any other being on the planet.
Nobody has the answers, and it is all just speculation. Alleged authorities are just that. Alleged.
And Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable. ;)

Let me first say that I am not debating anything with anyone here. I am attempting to listen to different views and basically try and understand my own feelings on this.

Certainly a creator would realize that given a certain set of circumstances such as ours, autonomy would play a large role, and maybe that in itself is the intent or purpose.
It matters not. Nor does it matter who perceives what. Reality is still reality regardless. Perceptions are illusional.
The meaning of life as a whole entity is static, but the perceptions are as transitory as the day is long.
And certainly we can envision nothing but us being the center of our own universes.
Did you not know that you are all in existence for my own personal benefit? :P
You exist only in my mind and universe.

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Mon 01 May , 2006 3:45 pm
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Holby,

I'm not trying to argue either. Sorry if I came off that way.
I do disagree with you on the question of qualifications, though. In the few years that I have studied epistemology, it is my conclusion that knowledge of the past is something that can be acquired and refined. As such, those who specialize in it can be said to "know" more than I do on such matters. Even if it is ultimately questionable, so also is nearly any other piece of knowledge.

Neither would I say that perceptions are illusional. They are not absolute representations of reality as it is. I'll agree with you there. But that doesn't mean they are wrong. They are simply slices of the truth, and as long as we remember this I think we'll be kept safe both from the dangers of arrogance or absolute subjectivity.

As for existing in only your mind and universe, could you imagine up a nice log cabin in the Rockies for me to summer in? I could use one of those. :P

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