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no one here cares about illegal immigration?

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gimli_axe_wielder
Post subject: no one here cares about illegal immigration?
Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 5:09 am
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Just curious. It's been all over the news for weeks here. Massive protests in the US today and yet there has yet to be a single thread on it... :scratch:

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 5:12 am
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No one cares about it here. I got to see one of the protest marches. It made me eat at Wendy's for lunch because the deli was across the street, through the march. I refuse to be in a political march.

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Feredir
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 12:55 pm
 
 
I just find it interesting that they feel that they have a Constitutional right to free speech but they (some) aren't even citizens. :scratch:

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 1:02 pm
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Don't most democratic governments consider free speech a basic human right?


I don't know. This whole push for immigration legislation all of a sudden feels like yet another attempt to distract the nation from the legal troubles of the administration.

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 1:49 pm
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except the people pushing it are the opponents of the president... more like they sense weakness...

there is no solution other than to actually enforce the laws we have... which would cause riots rather than protests...

most likely what will happen... we'll manage to shut down the border better, and in 50-60 years we'll only have legal immigrants again...

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 2:24 pm
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I say if we give them amnesty again, we annex their country. If we keep taking in their people, give us some more real estate!









;)













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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 4:06 pm
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yea I'm for that :P though.. I am not sure we want Tijuana....

Yesterday about 6 of the little shops near me were closed. Hair cut places, restaurants, cell phone stores etc... I found it interesting though, that while they all closed and put notes on the door, every one of them made up an excuse for closing other than in protest.

Maybe its just me, but if one is going to protest, shouldn't you at least have the honor of admitting you are doing it? What kind of a protest is it if you don't even have the courage to admit you are doing it? I'd have a lot more sympathy for them if they just came out and said we are closing today in support of immigrant rights. Making up excuses just feels like a slap in the face.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 5:10 pm
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I'm actually on the side of most of the protesters. I think these people should be given an opportunity to become american citizens. Anyone that says they don't contribute to the economy is being dishonest. Who cuts your lawn? Who cleans your dishes? Who makes your sandwiches at the deli? Who moves your furniture? Illegal immigrants.

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 5:42 pm
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There are two ways to rid ourselves of the illegal immigrant problem. One is to seal ourselves up. Fortify the Mexican border. Fortify the Canadian border. Lock down the ports. But not only is that not practical or affordable, it runs completely contrary to everything this country has ever been to the world as a whole. This country is an immigrant nation. Almost everyone came from somewhere at some point. So the other way is to make guest worker visas much easier to get. The immigration process is supposedly easier than it is in a lot of other countries, but if you ever sit down and talk to a legal immigrant you will see that it's still a bloody bureaucratic mess and there aren't as many visas as there are people willing to take the jobs (you must have an employer to get any type of H visa, and the employer must pay for your lawyer AND pay you the standard market salary...legal immigrants are not hired because they're cheap, they're hired because there aren't any Americans willing or able to do the job). People who are mired and poverty and desperate aren't going to want to wait and hope and wade through the paperwork, and that's how they end up here illegally. So, in a nutshell, I'm in favor of a guest worker program.

However, I'm not too fired up about it. This is an issue that comes and goes in cycles. Eventually the noise will simmer down. We depend very heavily on immigrant labor, and it would be disasterous to put and end to it.

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 5:59 pm
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Who cuts your lawn? me
Who cleans your dishes? me
Who makes your sandwiches at the deli? We eat at home, so "me".
Who moves your furniture? me and/or my husband

Who builds my neighbor's miles long ostentatious board fence for their horses? Some people who look awfully Hispanic....

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 7:25 pm
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What is this dell-ee of which you speak?


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halplm
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 7:39 pm
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we don't depend on ILLEGAL immigrants to do those jobs, the illegal immigrants have driven the wages for those jobs so low they're the only ones willing to take them.

We also have a welfare state where it's preferable to be on welfare and unemployed than get a job to many.

There's lots of stuff we could fix...

The real problem is employERS willing to break the law for cheap labor.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 8:18 pm
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It's not entirely the employers fault, but a lack of AMERICANS willing to do some of these jobs. It's a give and take.

I think delis are entirely a NYC thing, like bodegas. It's a place to get sandwiches and chips and other food items (nothing like a supermarket or even grocery).

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halplm
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 8:22 pm
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Yes, the americans are unwilling to do the jobs, becuase they pay so little, because illegals will do them for even less... AND the americans can get more from their local welfare or unemployment office.

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gimli_axe_wielder
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 9:12 pm
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I don't care if they are here. I do care if they are a drain on our system. I care about my health insurance going up every damn year in large part because of the amount of claims made by illegal immigrants with no health insurance. I care that my automobile insurance goes up all the time for the same reason. Do I think these people should forgo getting medical treatment because they have no insurance. No absolutely not, but that is where I think it is the governments fault for allowing them to be here, and yet doing nothing to take care of the insurance situation. The govt people are more than happy to sit and do nothing and allow the rest of us to pay the price for it.

I resent the fact that a large number of people are out protesting that they have equal rights from a country that they aren't even citizens of. Is it easy to become a citizen here or get resident status? Definatly not, but just because it is hard doen't mean you are grated some rights by default. IF they want to protest then start protesting how hard it is to become a citizen. The way I see it, I don't see the majority of them protesting because the system is broken. I see them protesting because they are pissed they might be sent home, when the fact is a majority of them never even tried to enter the country legaly to begin with. They took the easy way from day one and are now demanding we change the laws so that they can continue to have it easy by getting a free pass if they have been here a certain number of years already.

I agree that its probably the best way to handle it. You really can't just split familys up and send them home. It may be possible and legal, but it isn't ethical in my opinion. That doesn't change the fact that there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. If they want things changed, go to the local congressmen and women. Go to the senators offices. Go to the immigration offices. Rally out front there. Ask that the laws be rewritten and the red tape cut some what. Don't stand with your Mexican flag in the US and hold your sign up that says you are not a terrorist. No one said you were.

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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 10:04 pm
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TED wrote:
I think delis are entirely a NYC thing, like bodegas. It's a place to get sandwiches and chips and other food items (nothing like a supermarket or even grocery).
We have delis (short for delicatessens) here, although I’ve never heard of a bodega.

I have limited sympathy with illegal immigrants. I don’t oppose immigration in general, I just like the idea that my country’s Government is regulating it. It’s a huge political issue here – the Howard Government was returned in 2001 almost entirely because of Howard’s strong stance on illegal immigration (“WE will decide who comes into this country and the circumstances in which they come!”). Being an island nation, we can keep illegals out fairly easily.

That being said, I’ve never liked the idea of them spending long periods in detention. Process them quickly, I say, then either decide that they’re genuine refugees and let them in, else send them back.

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Iavas_Saar
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Posted: Tue 02 May , 2006 11:19 pm
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Tighten the border to stop the inflow then gradually chuck them all out.

Illegal is illegal. If you choose to break the law you are a criminal, whether your motives are genuine or not.

There are NO "jobs that Americans won't do". They would do them if they had to survive.

The economy would weaken a little, but this would be equalised by the legal citizens being better off by removing the illegal's drain on medicare and other welfare.

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Holbytla
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Posted: Wed 03 May , 2006 1:03 am
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There are a lot of unemployed people in this country.
I suggest giving each unemployed citizen an M-16.
Then I suggest all illegal immigrants are escorted to the border.
After that, the former unemployed people can guard all of the borders, and see that illegal entries are kept to a minimum.
Legal entries= Welcome aboard
Illegal entries = Get out.
Period.
End of discussion.
Maybe that way the greedy corporations can return wages to what they should be and stop gouging the American people by hiring illegal immigrants at below scale wages and lining their fat cat pockets..

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The Watcher
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Posted: Wed 03 May , 2006 2:13 am
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halplm wrote:
we don't depend on ILLEGAL immigrants to do those jobs, the illegal immigrants have driven the wages for those jobs so low they're the only ones willing to take them.

We also have a welfare state where it's preferable to be on welfare and unemployed than get a job to many.

There's lots of stuff we could fix...

The real problem is employERS willing to break the law for cheap labor.
:Q

Hal, I know you live in the land of fruit and nuts, but aren't you even being a bit harsh? Welfare at best offers stipends of something like $600 per month, with maybe some food stamps and energy assistance thrown in. Tell me how even a single person (who would not even qualify for this high of a stipend) is going to make it long term on this?

So, who picks all of that cheap affordable California farm produce? Who fills the jobs of being herders or cowboys on all of those vast western ranches? Who is in the back kitchen washing the dishes, handling the fryers, or prepping the food at your local takeout places? Including Taco Bell? Who is doing the roofing and residing and driveway replacements? The landscaping? Mowing the lawns? Becoming nannies and housekeepers?

It is nowhere as simple as you state it to be. None of the aforementioned jobs offer (usually) a sustainable wage to even a single person, much less someone trying to support a family with only that job. So, of course those jobs will go to those willing to fill them, the undocumented workers who find the options here FAR better than what they have in their own countries of origin, plus overall better systems of schooling, healthcare, and infrastructure.

Why penalize people already here who ARE productive?


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The Watcher
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Posted: Wed 03 May , 2006 2:25 am
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Holbytla wrote:
There are a lot of unemployed people in this country.
I suggest giving each unemployed citizen an M-16.
Then I suggest all illegal immigrants are escorted to the border.
After that, the former unemployed people can guard all of the borders, and see that illegal entries are kept to a minimum.
Legal entries= Welcome aboard
Illegal entries = Get out.
Period.
End of discussion.
Maybe that way the greedy corporations can return wages to what they should be and stop gouging the American people by hiring illegal immigrants at below scale wages and lining their fat cat pockets..
Do you HONESTLY think that this would work? Illegal aliens are not taking jobs away from the middle and lower classes, the corporations HAVE already done that. We have no strong unions, and those that we still do have, such as for the teachers and other non-competitive working segments of our society, are still subject to the whims of real dollars available for their salaries. No auto assembly line worker in Detroit getting $45,000 to $60,000 per year can compete with the same person over in Japan or South Korea. Artificially keeping wages high only hurts us long run, as more and more jobs vacate overseas. There is alas, a global economy at play here, and we all need to wake up to that fact.

Granted, greed among the haves IS at an all time high. Change the people in power. Make programs for things such as health care accessible to all. Stop giving ridiculous tax breaks to those who do not warrant them nor need them.


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