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those jobs USED to pay enough, the fact that people will work for less because they don't need to be paid minimum wage doesn't make it a good thing.

And if you don't think you can live perpetually on welfare, you are incorrect. It's not a good life, but lots of people seem to prefer it to actually working

damn it I hate it when I agree with hal haha

So why is America the only country whose citizens will refuse to do certain jobs? How do these jobs get done in other developed countries that don't have millions of "undocumented workers"?

halplm wrote:

those jobs USED to pay enough, the fact that people will work for less because they don't need to be paid minimum wage doesn't make it a good thing.

And if you don't think you can live perpetually on welfare, you are incorrect. It's not a good life, but lots of people seem to prefer it to actually working

Hal, I cannot speak for CA, but that is certainly not the case here, where we developed and instigated workfare - the first such state in the union to do so. It has had mixed results. For the first two years, the people ARE better off, but then, things regress as all of their access to any sorts of benefits, even childcare, are eliminated. SIGH. Then, we end up with way too many people living together under one roof, hugely segregated portions of our major cities isolated with the urban poor, who ARE for the most part working, but need to double and triple up to share expenses to get by, it has not made anything for the most part any better. Granted, there ARE success stories, but, since workfare does not pay for furhter education, only getting one into any jog out there, I do not see how its long term future is ensured. There is no guarantee of healthcare except fior children under 18, and those that cannot work for whatever reasons are hugely penalized. This in Wisconsin, where we still have a large undocumented worker issue. Those people are in the same straits, without any safety network at all there in place. So why should I feel any hostility towards those that come here and make it without even getting the paltry assistance that legal citizens and other working poor are entitled to?

see there is the problem there. Both Watcher and Hal have brought up valid points for certain circumstances. The only people that can actualy solve a lot of these problems are not the illegal aliens themselves that are here. It is the law makers that have to solve them. But naturally. They can't ever manage to agree on anything. I am not even sure you could convince them to agree to disagree so how does anything change?

Its an extremely difficult topic to deal with and one that wouldn't have been nearly hard to deal with had the govt done their job for the past 50+ years.

Iavas_Saar wrote:

damn it I hate it when I agree with hal haha

So why is America the only country whose citizens will refuse to do certain jobs? How do these jobs get done in other developed countries that don't have millions of "undocumented workers"?

I don't know...how many other developed countries have migrant fruit pickers?

I know other countries have issues with illegal immigration, but I don't know any numbers. I wonder how many illegals the EU has. I know the UK must be having issues. When I went to Scotland last summer the customs officer at Heathrow almost flipped her lid when I said I was visitng family. She calmed down a bit when I explained that my family was also coming in from the US and the reason I was alone is because we live in different cities and therefore arrived on different flights. I almost told her I had a very happy life in the US and wasn't planning to emigrate any time soon but it seemed unwise to mouth off at someone holding my passport.

I saw an article in the paper yesterday. About half the employers of illegal immigrants are homeowners in need of day-laborers. Think about that next time you hire someone to paint your house/mow your lawn/what-have-you.

the customs agent in Heathrow kept me for 20 minutes questioning me... I'm like.. yea because there are so many more jobs here and it is so much cheaper to live...

LOL Gimli...too true. I wouldn't think an American would be too likely to sneak into the UK to get work. It's more expensive there for practically everything!

exaaacctly They do have Guinness though.. there is always that...

They also have old castles and other ruiny types of places. But the mountains are a bit short for my tastes.

I dunno. The things that would cost a dollar here cost a pound over there, so I wouldn't say the prices are bad. The exchange rate, OTOH...

Hal, whose fault is it that these jobs don't pay enough to entice Americans? The higher ups want to increase profit, so they decrease pay for new employees. Less and less Americans take these jobs because they can't live whatever lifestyle they are currently living, so illegals who need to make some kind of living take the jobs. The employers decide that illegals is the way to go from now on. That's just one potential reason. I think the issue of illegals and lower paying jobs is a chicken/egg scenerio.

I agree with TW about not punishing those who ARE producing. Anyone who says they are not helping the economy is flat out wrong or lying.

they are NOT helping the economy. They are raising health care and education costs, and they are lowering wages for citizens.

They are criminals, as are the people that hire them. They offer a quick buck and operate at a low enough level that it is NOT worth the money to prosecute offenders or deport illegals. It's not a chicken and egg scenario, it drives EVERYTHING down except the cost to the country and taxpayers.

The INS is the worst run organization in the Government and it's done intentionally because the politicians can't afford to alienate the legally immigrated former Mexicans who vote, and the more illegals that show up, the more voters they will eventually get. But then again, the other side doesn't mind the workers being here, because they have buddies who make money off them, but don't want them to become legal immigrants because they'll vote for the other guys.

There is no upside, unless indentured servanthood is an upside.

So, one way to HELP the situation is to give the illegals incentive to become legal citizens (through the law-markers)-- would that really cut the rising insurance costs?

I'm not getting into insurance here. I think the whole industry is a fucking scam.

well, I agree with you there, but claims by people without insurance do certainly increase costs... and no illegal has insurance... legally anywya...

The illegals have incentives... to not have the risk of being deported... however... since we let them stay anyway... that's not a risk that's worth the hassle to avoid.

There is no incentive to do things the hard way when there is no penalty for doing things the easy way.

In theory it might cut costs. Many people wont get health insurance not because they can't afford it, but also because they are afraid if they have it then the govt can find them and deport them. If that possibility was gone then perhaps they would get health insurance. Of course. We can also argue the fact that religion plays a part by not endorsing contraceptives which in turn means many of the families get larger and larger even though the parents can't afford it. Children get sick. Children go to the hospital. No insurance means that the rest of us pay for that visit.

There are a thousand different problems that all contribute. I don't think its possible to say if they do this, or that, then it will solve the problem. Nothing will solve the problem. Well, other than the government's changing their ways and making life better for their citizens so they don't have a need or want to come here... Unfortunatly in the case of Mexio anyways, the government doesn't give a shit. They want it easier for them to come here. Less for the Mexican government to worry about then.

I still say all those people protesting about our laws should go back to their own countries and protest the conditions there. Apparently they have pride for their nationalities, but not enough to try and make a difference there.

Watcher, certainly I was being crabby and cynical and do not think my "idea" is in any way feasible.
I undoubtedly believe corporations have illegally trucked in workers and paid them low wages to increase profits for themselves.
That crap is still going on today.
Cracking down on greedy corporations will cure many ills in our society.
Not the least of which is the immigration issue.
It really is a case of supply and demand. The corps want to pay cheap wages, and comparitively those "cheap" wages are better than what the illegal immigrants can get at home.
Twenty years ago, meat packers were making $19 an hour. A wage that could support a family.
Today they start at $13 per hour. How does one support a family on 26K a year in today's world?

If I have one too many drinks at a restaurant and get stopped, my life is going to be hell for years and it will cost me thousands of dollars.
The local revenue enhancement squads are all over the place with their radar guns just aching to give me a ticket.
We have enough weaponry to destroy the planet many times over.
We have invented ways to communicate at the drop of the hat.
Why can't we secure our borders?
Why is it ok to have illegal immigrants when there are plenty of people attempting to enter this country the proper way?
Why do we want people whose first act on this soil is the breaking of a law?
I am just not getting this. So cut and dry to me.

It's cut and dry to me too.

The only thing cut and dry that I see here is this: until these people have more reason to stay in their own country than they have to come here, they will continue to come. The only way to stop them is to fundamentally change who we are as a people. I don’t want to go there. I don’t want electric fences and M-16 toting border goons and immigration police checking my papers. Because that’s what it would take. And even that wouldn’t work. I’ve heard one person familiar with situation say that even if you shot and killed every other person who crossed the border illegally you would not stem the flow.

It’s a strange thing, isn’t it, that here we are, the richest most powerful nation in the world, and right across the border lies what is, in effect, a third world country. Yes, Mexico has money, and resources, but they also have staggering poverty and political corruption. Ditto for most of the rest of Central and South America. Of course they are going to come, and they will find a way, no matter what we do.

The funny thing is, we have this sort of romanticized notion about immigrants, that they come here because they hate where they were. But most of them don’t, most of them love their homeland and would prefer to stay there, as can be seen by the preponderance of Mexican flags in the recent rallies. Even I know this from personal experience - my own mother was an immigrant from Austria and she still has very strong feelings for her native land. Most immigrants do. America is a last resort for many of them.

What can we do to make these others countries better though? I don’t know. That part is not so cut and dry after all.

Mind you, I’m just like everyone else in having little sympathy for illegals here. They skew every aspect of our economy. Those people who paint your house so cheap? It’s not just because they’re willing to work for less. It’s because they don’t play by the same rules. Why should they? They are, for all intents and purposes, not here. They don’t have to worry about following OSHA regulations, or paying workman’s comp insurance, or payroll taxes, etc, etc. The guy who charges $40 an hour to paint your house ain’t makin’ $40 an hour, let me tell you. Most of his money goes to overhead.

Yes, I do think it makes sense to go after companies that employ illegals. That’s not just an economic issue but an ethical one as well. Most of the people who are working in factories for slave wages are essentially nothing more than slave labor. And I don’t think the average American sees any benefit from those low cost workers - it’s just more money in the pockets of the wealthy. But rounding up the illegals and showing them the border won’t do much good if they’re back here in two weeks. From what I’ve heard, they will be. Guns and fences or not. So, I think River has it right. Give them work permits, make them part of the system and force them to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Don’t necessarily make them citizens - after all they came here illegally so they have no right to expect the benefits of citizenship. But, at least take away their ability to skew the workplace for the rest of us.

Photographers talk about something like that and I am sure with many vocations it is the same. In photography there is a big problem with people weaking the price of work. There are so many people out there that just pick up a camera, make a business card and call themselves professional that they drive down the overall cost of the industry. These people charge well below the value of what they are doing, and offer poorer quality. The problem is most people have the same mentality that it really isn't that hard so if they have the choice between the $500 wedding and the $3000 wedding they take the cheap one. They have no idea of the quality difference though if you took both photographers and sent them to the same wedding I can guarantee which photos the people would want to buy.

Unfortunatly it drives down the value of the work. Now those people charging $3000 are having to settle for charging $1500 not because their work isn't as good anymore but because the others are charging such a rediculously low rate, that its all they can do to stay competitive. The "professionals" that charge to little also fail to have insurance, pay their assistants under the table, etc. So they have much less overhead than the Pro that really does do it for a living and not just as a side gig. They generaly use inferior equipment that isn't quite up to snuff. Its a miracle more people's photos aren't destroyed because of the morons with a digital camera I swear...

People come in all the time to the camera shop I work at wanting to take photos of their products for ebay or whatever. They expect us to teach them everything there is to know so they get professional quality shots with no experience at all and in 15 minutes. They actually get offended when after the 5 phone call to us we finaly tell them you know what, We told you at the beginning that this was to complicated to just pick up if you hadn't done it before, we don't have time to keep talking, so please call someone else for advice from now on. I mean.. being helpful is one thing. We don't mind talking about cameras and such, but when I am trying to tell someone about lighting and the difference between a strip light and a snoot and they cant even figure out how to put a bulb in there is something wrong.

Now this has nothing to do with illegals, but the same thing happens when you have illegals doing contract work and so forth that professionals have gone to school and spent many years learning and studying to do correctly. To bad for them because the rest of the country is either cheap or doesn't know any better and is willing to settle for less.

Quote:

The only thing cut and dry that I see here is this: until these people have more reason to stay in their own country than they have to come here, they will continue to come. The only way to stop them is to fundamentally change who we are as a people. I don’t want to go there. I don’t want electric fences and M-16 toting border goons and immigration police checking my papers.

But shouldn't believers in the "war on terror" want borders with that level of security, to stop those Al Qaeda terrorists sneaking nukes and other goodies into the US?

It seems like a contradiction to me. You simultaneously believe that there is a determined, global enemy out there wanting to hurt the US, but you don't think it's important to plug the border leaks?

Who said I "believe" in the war on terror? Personally I think it’s a crock, meant to do nothing but scare us into submission so the Bush crowd can have their way with the country. But that’s just me.

I’m not saying terrorism isn’t a threat, just that the current “war on terrorism” is a crock. Personally, I don’t think you can fight a “war” against terrorism. But again, that’s just me.

Given the porosity of the border for all of these years, I think the terrorists would have made use of it by now if they were going to. To my knowledge they haven’t, or at least they’ve been stopped if they tried (I seem to recall something about an attempt to smuggle something in from Canada, during the Y2K celebrations, that was stopped).