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Does Hell = Death?

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Lord_Morningstar
Post subject: Does Hell = Death?
Posted: Tue 30 May , 2006 7:11 am
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This started out in a discussion on Hell over at TORC.

Basically, I always thought that Christian theology stated fairly unambiguously that those who do not accept salvation through Christ are tormented forever in hell (Traditionalism). While reading around for information for use in that thread, I’m starting to think that that interpretation is quite possibly wrong.

Basically, I think that Annihilationism (the idea that the souls of the unsaved are destroyed in a total and final death) is closer to the mark. This view is held, I believe, by Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and a number of evangelical Anglicans. The Traditionalist view is either supported only by a minority of verses, or else is the result of sloppy translation.

Firstly, what is Hell? Several different words are translated into the English ‘hell’. Leaving aside the Old Testament Hebrew Sheol, we have the Greek Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna. To quote from wikipedia, which in turn quotes from Jeff Priddy:
Quote:
The religious and secular man's nightmarish ideas of HELL (that is, of a Christ-managed hothouse where sinners get burned forever) come to them compliments of ... careless translating ... the practice of ignoring separate Greek words.

In 2 Pet. 2:4, God chose the Greek word "Tartaros" (ταρταροω; English transliteration, "Tartarus") to identify the temporary abode of sinning angels. Tartarus holds spirit beings, not humans, and there is not a flame on the premises. The KJV and NIV translators (neither of whose versions have any influence in the expression of Eastern Orthodox doctrine) gave this specific Greek word the English equivalent, "hell".

In Matthew 5:22 (and in several other places), God chose a different Greek word, "Geenna," (English transliteration: "Gehenna") to name a valley on the southwest corner of Jerusalem where the corpses of criminals will be disposed of during the thousand-year kingdom. There are flames here, yes, but the flames cremate the dead (Is. 66:24), they don't torture the living. Most of humanity is not even alive to see Gehenna (Rev. 20:5), let alone be tormented there. The KJV and NIV translators gave this specific Greek word the English equivalent, "hell".

In Luke 16:23 (and in other places), God chose the Greek word, "hades", to describe the state of invisibility; in Greek, the word means "unseen". God uses this word often to describe a person's nonexistence in death: unless spoken of figuratively, a dead person doesn't see anything, hear anything, feel anything, know anything, do anything: hades. Flames, screams, pointy tails and pitchforks are conspicuously absent. All the dead "go" here, not just the wicked. The KJV and NIV translators gave this specific Greek word the English equivalent, "hell".
So, what does the New Testament say?
Rom. 6:23 wrote:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in [or through] Christ Jesus our Lord.
In other words, according to this verse, the two outcomes for any soul are ‘eternal life’ or the opposite of eternal life, which the verse conveniently tells us is ‘death’. If you are being enternally tomented, then you are experiencing eternal life. This contradicts what Romans tells us here – eternal life is the gift of God. This is not the only verse which talks about this distinction.
2 Thess:1 wrote:
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
Rev 20:14-15 wrote:
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 wrote:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
According to these verses, being cast into ‘the lake of fire’ results in destruction, not enternal torment. So what is hell, in that case? Most likely, the place where rebellious angels are punished:
Rev 20:10 wrote:
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Devil and false prophet are tormented for ever and ever (or are they? There’s a possible mistranslation issue here – the verse could read ‘for aeons and aeons’ – see below). But here’s no mention of the sinners.

Now, what of the verses which say differently?
Matt 25:41 – 46 wrote:
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

[…]

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
The lake of fire cannot both be ‘death’ and ‘eternal punishment’. I’m kinda stuck here because I don’t know what the original phrase was. The author here may be using the term ‘eternal punishment’ to describe total death, as someone who dies totally does not get to live in the Kingdom of God. Read with the verses I posted above, it seems that being cast into the lake of fire results in destruction for people and torment for spiritual beings.
Luke 16:23 - 28 wrote:
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell [Hades], where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

[…]

He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
This verse is odd because refers to ‘Hades’. It may also be a parable. This is the definate spanner in the works for my theory.
Luke 13:28 wrote:
There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
An odd one. I don’t know exactly what to make of it.
Rev 14:9-11 wrote:
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
This does refer specifically to those who go over to the antichrist, though, not sinners in general.

To add a few extra translation notes, I’ll save myself some effort and just quote wikipedia:
Quote:
The Greek words "Hades" and "Gehenna" are sometimes translated into the word "hell", though the concepts are dissimilar. Martin Luther, for example, translated the word "Hades" five times as the German word for "hell" (Hölle) (for example Matthew 16:18), and twice as "the dead", twice as the "world of the dead", and once as "his kingdom" (all in German). "Gehenna" was translated by Martin Luther eight times as "hell" (for example: Matthew 5:22,29,30; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45; and so on) and four times as "hellish". In Norse mythology the underworld was a cold, monotonous place, which was commanded by the goddess Hel. The place was called Hel, too.

Newer translations of the Bible translate "Hades" or "Sheol" into the words "world of dead", "underworld", "grave", "crypt" or similar, but still translate the word "Gehenna" into the word "hell".

The word "Hades" of the New Testament is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Sheol" of the Old Testament (Acts 2:27, Psalms 16:10). What happens in Hades, or rather Sheol, Ecclesiastes tells us: "for in the Sheol, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (Ecclesiastes 9,10) and "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. " (Ecclesiastes 9:5; see also Psalms 89:49; 139:8; Numbers 16:30). "The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the Sheol and raises up. " (1 Samuel 2:6). The souls of all human beings are going to Hades, whether they believe or not (John 5:28-29; Job 3:11-19, 14:13; Ez 32:18-32; Ps. 31:17; Dan. 12:2).

Geenna (or Gehenna) is the name of an earthly place. It comes from Hebrew and means "Gorge of Hinnom (Ge-Hinnom)". This gorge can still be visited today near Jerusalem. In the time of the Old Testament it was a place where children were sacrificed to the Ammonite god Molech (2 Kings 23:10). That cultic practice was, according to the Old Testament, imitated by King Solomon in the 10th Century B.C.E. and under the leadership of king Manasseh in the 7th Century B.C.E. and in times of crisis until the time of exile of the Jews in Babylon (6th Century B.C.E.). The prophet Jeremiah, who condemned that cult strictly, called the valley the "gorge of killing" (Jeremiah 7:31-32; 19:5-9). Gehenna became later a central garbage dump, to stop the practice of child sacrifice. At the turn of the 1st Century C.E. the gorge was used also to burn the dead bodies of criminals after their execution. The image of burning dead bodies probably inspired Jewish, and later Christian theologians to translate that place into the word "hell".

The sea of fire after the last tribunal in Revelation 20:14 isn't translated into the word "hell", but sometimes gets the connotations of "hell". In that sea of fire are thrown the beast, the devil, the false prophet, and Hell (Hades) itself, along with evil-doers, according to Revelation 20:12-15. "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for aeons of aeons." (Revelation 20:10) Many people mistakenly assume "Ages of Ages" to mean forever, but Aeon is definitely a fixed length.
So, in the end, this is what we get:

There is an actual place which may be described as hell – Tartarus. It is for the devil and his angels. Normal people who die in their sins go to Hades – death. When someone dies, they sleep in their grave until they are ressurected for the final judgement. When they rise, they are corporeal – they have their bodies. Those whose names are in the book of life are given eternal life, while those whose names are not are cast into the lake of fire and thus destroyed.

This also resolves the so-called problem of hell. It is difficult to comprehend an all-loving God inflicting eternal punishment on people, especially when they cannot avoid sin (Romans 3:23 – “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord…”), an all-powerful God letting such a situation continue or an all-knowing God creating mankind and creating souls knowing that they will experience a brief life and then most will be tormented forever. Annihilationism is arguably more sensible – you can either accept or reject God, and that’s exactly what you get – live with him forever or die eternally. They are not punished for rejecting God per se.

This isn’t anywhere near complete – I’ve put it together by reading wikipedia and hunting for bible verses after all, but I think that it has merit. Opinions?

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yovargas
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Posted: Tue 30 May , 2006 11:39 am
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Quote:
This view is held, I believe, by Seventh-Day Adventists
Just confirming that this is correct (I was raised SDA).
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The author here may be using the term ‘eternal punishment’ to describe total death, as someone who dies totally does not get to live in the Kingdom of God.
This is the SDA interpretation.


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TWT
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Posted: Tue 30 May , 2006 4:58 pm
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I shall C&P my post from TORC as well then. Here it goes:


Yes, many translations of the Bible translate 'hades' and 'sheol' as "hell" whereas both refer to nothing other than the grave. If one were to believe that either hades or sheol refered to a place where people went to suffer then you would have to accept that Jesus, a perfect man also suffered there for three days, a premise which is utterly rediculous. The same would be for Lazerus. I don't think Jesus would have resurrected him from "hell" had he been a good person.

There is also the matter of "Gehenna". Again, just like the wild beast and so many other examples in the Bible, "Gehenna" is used as an illustration to make a point.
Quote:
Matt 10:28: And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.
This is referring to what Lord M said. Death. Gehenna was a pit outside of Jerusalem where people would toss their garbage and corpses of criminals. It was a disgusting and vile place which was always burning. In fact Gehenna which is located in the Valley of Hinnom was the place used for the pagan practices of tossing newborns into the fire centuries before. Like the lake of fire Jesus used it to symbolize destruction. Whatever was tossed into Gehenna never came back. It was incinerated. Destruction. Death. Etc.

Although I agree with Lord M on most of those points I can't side with you on Hell being a place for the gone-wrong angels to suffer. For one thing fire would never really do anything to them, they are spirit creatures. These angles deserve no more punishment than do the men on Earth who take the same course. They too will be completely destroyed along with their master Satan.

Here are a few more scriptures to support that the dead will not "burn in hell" or be able to do anything for that matter (thus also defeating the theory of an immortal soul floating off somewhere).
Quote:
Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.”
Quote:
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.”
*Note: The translation of this scripture although saying "spirit" refers to one's breath. Therefore this "spirit" that goes out is not an immortal soul but essentially one's life or breathing.
Quote:
Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.”
Quote:
“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.
And here is an interesting note and though it isn't exactly talking about hell it talks about what the Bible refers to when it says 'eternal flame'. The "KJ" stands for King James version.
Quote:
Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)
As for the scripture used earlier which refers to the devil and his angels burning forever and ever there is an interesting word used in the translation.
Lord M wrote:
The lake of fire cannot both be ‘death’ and ‘eternal punishment’. I’m kinda stuck here because I don’t know what the original phrase was. The author here may be using the term ‘eternal punishment’ to describe total death, as someone who dies totally does not get to live in the Kingdom of God. Read with the verses I posted above, it seems that being cast into the lake of fire results in destruction for people and torment for spiritual beings.
Note the end of this quote for the curious translation I mentioned.
Quote:
When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba´sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.
Now for a couple more scriptures, at least one of which I believe Lord M mentioned.
Quote:
Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”
Quote:
Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”
I mentioned in my first post here that even the concept of hell is not compatible with God's personality. Here is a verse that supports that.
Quote:
Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)
Quote:
“God is love.” (1 John 4:8
It's always interesting to note that the above verse does not mention that God has love, rather he is love. If we are truly his children the thought of tormenting us forever no matter what we had done would not even enter his mind. Even a human, imperfect, sinful parent would never even dream of hurting their child no matter to what extreme he had repetedly gone. So how could God, being the personification and the epitome of love be able to do so? The whole premise is flawed from the outset.

What are the roots of the belief of hellfire?
Quote:
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.
Just to draw further on that last paragraph I want to mention that to me at least it makes perfect sense. The first time Satan spoke to a human (Eve) he lied to her about God stating falsities about him to make Eve feel cold towards God. This whole doctrine of Hellfire has the same effect as you can see by what Ethel alone wrote in starting this thread. The whole concept of hell makes people believe God is not someone worthy of worship and causes many to then disregard him altogether. Who is not to say Satan had a hand in this lie as well?

If I missed something let me know and I'll dig some more quotes and verses up. :)

Cheers,

TWT


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Mummpizz
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Posted: Tue 30 May , 2006 8:06 pm
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Just a sidenote: pagan Germans went to hel. There was no other place to go.


See you there! :)

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Lord_Morningstar
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I’m surprised more people haven’t responded to this. It is pretty significant, after all. Don’t any of the ‘literal hell’ Christians have any response?

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Estel
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Planning to respond - just trying to get my thoughts together on this first.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Sat 03 Jun , 2006 6:55 pm
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I am curious which translation of the bible those passages are quoted from, L_M. I know translations can differ slightly from one or another.
2 Thess:1 wrote:
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
How does "everlasting destruction" fit into the total death theory, I wonder. Perhaps it is a bit of poetry to drive the point home harder, but destruction is generally a total annihilation. Everlasting destruction is a interesting wording if your interpretation is correct.

This is just a small quibble, and not to be seen as any major disagreement with your opinion here. I think you are on to something.
L_M wrote:
It is difficult to comprehend an all-loving God inflicting eternal punishment on people, especially when they cannot avoid sin (Romans 3:23 – “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord…”), an all-powerful God letting such a situation continue or an all-knowing God creating mankind and creating souls knowing that they will experience a brief life and then most will be tormented forever. Annihilationism is arguably more sensible – you can either accept or reject God, and that’s exactly what you get – live with him forever or die eternally. They are not punished for rejecting God per se.
Perhaps total death is a situation that god cannot change, but must abide by. Maybe the soul can only continue in his presense, so it wouldn't exactly be his punishment if your soul is destroyed for rejecting his presense. I don't believe this, but I dabble in possiblities.

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TWT
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Posted: Sat 03 Jun , 2006 7:36 pm
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According to my beliefs you're essentially right TED. Basically the bible says that God will only destroy those (in Armaggedon) who didn't heed his warnings and rejected his teachings. Those who never had the chance to hear his word won't die (or will at least have a shot at the 'New World'). Those who rejected him will simply die and never be alive again.

As the verse that Yova mentioned says, "the wages sin pays is death." By dying one's sins are washed from him. There is only one sin the bible talks about that is unforgiveble and there are none who can judge today who comits this sin but we do know of some who in biblical times commited the sin.


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Lord_Morningstar
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TED wrote:
I am curious which translation of the bible those passages are quoted from, L_M. I know translations can differ slightly from one or another.
I think it's the NIV. Not sure. I really should remember where I got them from...

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