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Christian Extremism--Now In Videogame Form

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10FTTALL
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Posted: Sat 16 Dec , 2006 4:13 am
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What exactly is the "ordinate" amount of concern one should show toward a movement that's bent on reconstructing political and legal systems based on Biblical law?
The people who fit your concern are a small fringe. Every belief has a fringe. It doesn't really have anything to do with the Left Behind books or game, except in the fact that true dominionists are much more likely than Joe-on-the-street to have read the series.

If you're just worried about conservative Christians voting and participating in the political process, I don't know what to say, except that everyone who votes/runs for office is going to work based on their beliefs. It's like you think freedom of religion is outdated or something.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Sat 16 Dec , 2006 5:37 pm
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On the plus side, if they do get the Christian Right hooked to this game, the will spend less time evangelising or giving money to the Christian TV networks ;)

Will they make a bigger one, like a MUD? Can you imagine how this could become the new 'World of Warcraft'. They could call it 'World of Salvation', have a whole sub culture of adicts, selling virtual relics and the names of virtual angels.

Fab :D

Not sure they would have the dark ones, but I guess if they could persuade the fundementalist Muslims to play the 'other side', wouldn't it be better for the world for them to go fight Armagedon in cyber space and leave the rest of us out of it.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sun 17 Dec , 2006 6:21 am
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10FTTALL wrote:
The people who fit your concern are a small fringe. Every belief has a fringe. It doesn't really have anything to do with the Left Behind books or game, except in the fact that true dominionists are much more likely than Joe-on-the-street to have read the series.
They're not as fringe as most people think, and they're disproportionately powerful. They often play down their true intentions in order to get support from moderates, who enable them with their donations and failure to speak out. "Left Behind" is an excellent example; LaHaye is a dominionist. Moderates would recoil from his philosophy if he stated it outright, but it becomes more palatable when it's subtlety stated through fiction. Eventually it becomes mainstream.

"I want to be invisible. I do guerrilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don't know it's over until you're in a body bag."
-Ralph Reed

It's a subject addressed by "Letter to a Christian Nation", a promising-looking book I intend to read as soon as I get a chance.
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If you're just worried about conservative Christians voting and participating in the political process, I don't know what to say, except that everyone who votes/runs for office is going to work based on their beliefs. It's like you think freedom of religion is outdated or something.
I'm all for freedom of belief and expression and have no desire to silence anyone or force them underground (assuming there were the slightest chance such an unpopular minority to do that to the dominant majority). But it makes me sad to see people waste that freedom on things like professional wrestling, American Idol, and bronze-age superstition; especially in a day and age when more knowledge, information, and opportunity is available than at any previous point in history.


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Dindraug
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Posted: Mon 18 Dec , 2006 8:38 am
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Errrr Dave, Christianity appeared in the Iron age. The Bronze age, in most of eurasia finished about 300-500 years prior to the first footsteps of the icckle baby Jesus.

Good point though.

I would add however, that we are currently in a possition where more lies, falsehoods and unresearced 'truths' are available to people than at any point in history as well.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Mon 18 Dec , 2006 10:21 am
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Dindraug wrote:
Errrr Dave, Christianity appeared in the Iron age. The Bronze age, in most of eurasia finished about 300-500 years prior to the first footsteps of the icckle baby Jesus.
The Old Testement was written during the Bronze Age; at least, the most objectionable parts were. :)


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Dindraug
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Posted: Mon 18 Dec , 2006 2:00 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
Dindraug wrote:
Errrr Dave, Christianity appeared in the Iron age. The Bronze age, in most of eurasia finished about 300-500 years prior to the first footsteps of the icckle baby Jesus.
The Old Testement was written during the Bronze Age; at least, the most objectionable parts were. :)
No, they were collated about 500 BC deep in the Iron age of Mesopatania ;)

The tales are older, the versions written down were not.

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TWT
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Posted: Mon 18 Dec , 2006 6:40 pm
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Dindraug wrote:
Errrr Dave, Christianity appeared in the Iron age. The Bronze age, in most of eurasia finished about 300-500 years prior to the first footsteps of the icckle baby Jesus.

Good point though.

I would add however, that we are currently in a possition where more lies, falsehoods and unresearced 'truths' are available to people than at any point in history as well.
Christianity certainly didn't appear until Jesus turned 30 years old and was soon thereafter baptized and started to lead his disciples. The term Christian means followers of Christ. The bible (old testament) existed long before and those who followed it worshipped Christ's father the one both the Old and New Testament refers to as Jehovah. Although the faith both in the Old Testament when God's servants knew only of him and then in the New where they became followers of Christ are one and the same, actual Cristianity did not exist until this millenium.


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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Mon 18 Dec , 2006 8:10 pm
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To be fair, Dave's original statement only makes reference to "bronze-age superstition." Superstituion does not require that it be written down in order to be practiced or believed in. And as far as I know, the oral tradition that led to modern day Jewish/Christian beliefs does date to before the Iron Age.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Mon 18 Dec , 2006 8:22 pm
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Wolfgangbos wrote:
To be fair, Dave's original statement only makes reference to "bronze-age superstition." Superstituion does not require that it be written down in order to be practiced or believed in. And as far as I know, the oral tradition that led to modern day Jewish/Christian beliefs does date to before the Iron Age.
Yes, that was exactly what I meant. The Leviticus laws regarding witchcraft, homosexuality, diet, etc. have all probably been around since the bronze age. So have the stories about the conquest of Caanan and the massacre and rape of unbelievers that went along with it. Also, while the Pentateuch was probably written almost entirely during the captivity, parts of the Old Testament (Job, the song of Deborah) are definitely much older, and parts of the Pentateuch are likely verbatim copies of much older writings. Finally, the Israelites remained in the bronze age longer than many of the tribes around them.


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Dawnnamira
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Posted: Mon 18 Dec , 2006 8:54 pm
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I'm going to step in here and state my opinion. It might not make sense, but that's something I'm used to.

My opinion about this game: It doesn't follow the books. I've read the series and the only time I can remember someone killing a 'bad guy' is when the Anti-Christ is assissinated by a non-believer. But it's been about two years since I finished the series, so my remembrance might be off.

I'd also like to point out that one of the groups boycotting this game boycotted GTA.

I haven't boycotted either, and I could be considered a "Christian Extremist" and a "born again" by some people.

However, compared to the many people I'm lumped with - I'm quite liberal.


I don't support this game.........................................not just because of the fact that it advocates 'prayer' as a penance for murder (which is more of a Catholic belief than mainstream Christian belief) but because the book series itself has many things wrong with it...

Also because I don't support Rick Warren's "theology", so if he might support it, than it isn't worth it.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Wed 20 Dec , 2006 1:59 pm
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TWT wrote:

Christianity certainly didn't appear until Jesus turned 30 years old and was soon thereafter baptized and started to lead his disciples. The term Christian means followers of Christ. The bible (old testament) existed long before and those who followed it worshipped Christ's father the one both the Old and New Testament refers to as Jehovah. Although the faith both in the Old Testament when God's servants knew only of him and then in the New where they became followers of Christ are one and the same, actual Cristianity did not exist until this millenium.
Again no.

Christianity was a messianic cult, it just took them a long time to choose which one they wanted of the myriad that were hanging around in Palestibne. Tecnically you are correct, the the Christianity as recognisable today and based about the life and times of Jesus, didn't really appear until about AD40-50 when Paul beame emeshed in the scattering cult.

However, Christ means messiah (effectivley) and if the current view that the historic Jesus was part of the Essene community is correct, he would actually have called himself a Christian in the true sense of the word, and had he spoken greek ;) .

How ironic is that...

Or maybe he did set the whole thing up so that he would become the messianic figure and therfore the center of the messianic cult?

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Rinon
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Posted: Thu 21 Dec , 2006 3:00 am
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.not just because of the fact that it advocates 'prayer' as a penance for murder (which is more of a Catholic belief than mainstream Christian belief)
Umm..., what? :scratch: From my understanding, when you kill someone, you've committed a mortal sin in the eyes of the Catholic church. Something that prayer and reconciliation aren't going to heal. During the crusades and inquisition, well yes that did happen. But not in the 21st century.


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TWT
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Posted: Thu 21 Dec , 2006 3:39 am
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Dindraug wrote:
TWT wrote:

Christianity certainly didn't appear until Jesus turned 30 years old and was soon thereafter baptized and started to lead his disciples. The term Christian means followers of Christ. The bible (old testament) existed long before and those who followed it worshipped Christ's father the one both the Old and New Testament refers to as Jehovah. Although the faith both in the Old Testament when God's servants knew only of him and then in the New where they became followers of Christ are one and the same, actual Cristianity did not exist until this millenium.
Again no.
Actually yes.

We could go back and forth but the fact is that what you stated are theories, far from fact. I'm sure you think that what I believe in is not fact. I've done a LOT of research and I'm very comfortable with my position. :)


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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 21 Dec , 2006 4:00 am
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Rinon wrote:
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.not just because of the fact that it advocates 'prayer' as a penance for murder (which is more of a Catholic belief than mainstream Christian belief)
Umm..., what? :scratch: From my understanding, when you kill someone, you've committed a mortal sin in the eyes of the Catholic church. Something that prayer and reconciliation aren't going to heal. During the crusades and inquisition, well yes that did happen. But not in the 21st century.
I've always seem Catholicism as more works based...like if you take communion, do confession, do some Hail Marys, etc, do x amount of volunteer work, you can absolve your sins. I don't know how things would work for murder, but somehow I'd think the same rules could apply. I've not had tons of exposure but that's what's struck me about that denomination.


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TWT
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Posted: Thu 21 Dec , 2006 4:03 am
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Erunáme wrote:
Rinon wrote:
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.not just because of the fact that it advocates 'prayer' as a penance for murder (which is more of a Catholic belief than mainstream Christian belief)
Umm..., what? :scratch: From my understanding, when you kill someone, you've committed a mortal sin in the eyes of the Catholic church. Something that prayer and reconciliation aren't going to heal. During the crusades and inquisition, well yes that did happen. But not in the 21st century.
I've always seem Catholicism as more works based...like if you take communion, do confession, do some Hail Marys, etc, do x amount of volunteer work, you can absolve your sins. I don't know how things would work for murder, but somehow I'd think the same rules could apply. I've not had tons of exposure but that's what's struck me about that denomination.
I don't know about murder but if you molest children then all you have to do is move to a new place where no one knows you...

;)

Yes, I'm fully expecting to be flamed for that but I don't care, I couldn't resist. :cool:


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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 21 Dec , 2006 5:41 pm
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TWT wrote:
Actually yes.

We could go back and forth but the fact is that what you stated are theories, far from fact. I'm sure you think that what I believe in is not fact. I've done a LOT of research and I'm very comfortable with my position. :)
Theories? :LMAO: I love denial in the face of adversity :devil:

I am glad you get comfort from your position. to be frank, I am always jealous of anybody who can given the body of evidence against any belief system, not just the psudo-messianic's you find amongst the book faiths, but other traditions as well.

I also bet I have done more research than most, and I can at least say mine is not bias to one side or another ;) :poke:


Eru, you are right that under Catholisism even murder can be forgeiven (or could at various points in history). Remember that forgivness is not given in this world, but in the next. You can 'work off the debt', but you won't know the result until you try to enter heaven.

And you can commit murder with divine sanction as well, so if you are good, you do all those acts to absolve sin and do it prior to the event, you can actually murder with a clean slate under Catholic law. However, this would not absolve you in front of a judge. Which is important to keep in mind ;)

Which is one of the most facinating things seen in this thread, not the killing but the killing in the name of Christ. It is facinating to read. As an undergrad I was always interested in belief, and where belief limits itself.

How does a game like this, which I understand many here see as blasphermous, differ from say Grand Theft Auto. The bottom line is that it is a blasphermy, which makes it way worse than anything else. But why should that be? In the rational world, where the vast majority of folks don't subscribe to a doctrinal worldview, why would this be an issue?

Or is it just the vocal few that do?

Genuinly intersted in the subject, do carry on :)

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Thu 21 Dec , 2006 7:52 pm
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Dindraug wrote:
I also bet I have done more research than most, and I can at least say mine is not bias to one side or another


Though I can certainly identify with many of your conclusions, Din, I do strongly suspect that you do have a bias. As I age, I am beginning to think that bias in matters of truth is an inescapable component of human existence. For it to be otherwise would require that individual humans lack individual experiences.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 28 Dec , 2006 12:53 pm
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Wolfgangbos wrote:
Dindraug wrote:
I also bet I have done more research than most, and I can at least say mine is not bias to one side or another


Though I can certainly identify with many of your conclusions, Din, I do strongly suspect that you do have a bias. As I age, I am beginning to think that bias in matters of truth is an inescapable component of human existence. For it to be otherwise would require that individual humans lack individual experiences.
What, you belive that all thought is sujective over the objective viewpoint of others?

:LMAO:

Your right though, I would not be human if I did not show bias. But my poke was as much about source as anything else. I am happy to read Dawkins as I am to read Barth or Sargent or Eliada or Aquinus or Patanjali or, well you know stuff, people etc.

It is the openmindedness in these sorts of discussion that I miss :)

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 05 Jan , 2007 5:37 am
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Dawnnamira
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Posted: Sat 06 Jan , 2007 5:07 am
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Awesome video.

:LMAO: :damnfunny:

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