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Nudity and sexual imagery

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Elenath
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Posted: Thu 27 Jan , 2005 8:56 pm
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Okay, one thing I learned from this thread -- posting on this board with Guru is going to have some interesting moments :Q :P Although, hey, now I know I'm adorable... ;) :mrgreen:

Guru's right, there was never much nakedness in our family. Which is probably part of the reason I ended up being pretty self-conscious about my own nakedness: although I think being overweight had just as much, if not more, to do with it. I remember being rather embarassed by seeing naked adults as a child (in a sauna or suchlike), and I'm not sure entirely where that came from - lack of exposure to nakedness? a subconscious cultural message? Din's right that nakedness and sex really shouldn't be connected, and I agree that in the US they pretty much always are. It's extremely rare to see any sort of even partial nudity without it having some sort of sexual connotation. Although, personally, I seem to have somehow ended up with them fairly separate. I'm still fairly shy regarding nakedness, mine and other people's, but I don't automatically connect it with sex. In fact, I seem to be quite a bit more reserved when it comes to nakedness than I am with sex ;)

I'm afraid I'm just rambling now, and if I ever had a point, I can't remember what it was. I think I'll end by saying that I agree with Lidless, the Dutch do have it right. Despite what many people here in the US think, supressing sexual material doesn't keep kids "safe" - as teen pregnancy statistics show, among other things, it does the opposite. Making sex "wrong", "dirty", "forbidden", just sends young people's sexuality onto the wrong paths. And this one I do blame on religion and those darned Puritans ;)

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Thu 27 Jan , 2005 9:03 pm
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My parents were SOMEWHAT enlightened when it came to nudity. Up until a certain age, my brother and I were allowed to bathe together, and my parents did not cover themselves in the bathroom if we were in there too. I still remember chatting with my dad while he was having his bath, and I was sitting on the potty. It was their way of teaching us the differences between males and females. The idea was that if we knew we wouldn't be tempted to play 'doctor' or 'nurse' with our friends to find out!

Sex was a different matter, though. Most of what I learned about it came from videos shown at school, and a book my mom had hidden away in her dresser drawer. I hate the was North America has sexualized the female body. My husband even had a bit of difficulty with the fact I frequently see patients naked as part of my job. I also have to catheterize male patients, and often do dressings on perineal area of the body. (People tend to get a lot of abcesses and nasty infections down there, especially in hot weather!)

So, am I thinking about sex when I have a male patient lying in front of me, and I'm about to put 10 inches of packing ribbon into a huge abcess he has right next to his anus? Uhhh, yeah suuuuuuuure! :roll: I am constantly amazed at the number of people who think we must get SOME sort of kick out of seeing patients naked. FOr me, there is NOTHING sexual about the naked body of a sick person. As for seeing their genitals.... :yawn: :tired: if you've seen one set of naked parts, you've seen 'em all. Here, just hold this flashlight for me, so I can find where this catheter is supposed to go..... some women have the urinary meatus hidden in the wierdest places, especially if they've had a lot of kiddies....

I will never forget the first time I had a post edited at TORC. We got into a discussion about the hazards of zippers on pants, and I linked to a post at my nursing website where one of our nurses had had to go out and do a dressing on a guy who'd contracted a raging infection from getting his foreskin caught in his zipper. Inny thought the link was TMI, and edited it out! :roll:

Hheheh, I can just see all the guys cringeing right now! =:)


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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 27 Jan , 2005 9:11 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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*faints*

The fly, then the ointment in that particular case.

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Thu 27 Jan , 2005 9:33 pm
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Hmmm I must say I feel fortunate living here when it comes to sexuality and nudity. Like Lidless already said little is hidden, from the weird guy in Amsterdam prancing around a square wearing naught but a thong and people just ignore him and continue their drink and chat to the sexshops next to lets say a library.

In my home sex was never an issue I was given books on it when I was 8 and I’ve got at least three on how it ‘works’. My mother never hid anything from me and explained things when I ran to her with one of the books. My dad however is a different story. He got rather upset with me when I accidently walked in on him in the bathroom while he was taking a shower. I managed to flee before the towel hit me.I still think he’d personally kill any boyfriend I may have had had he still been here. But beside that it was fine.

I remember in my second year in highschool we got sexual education and we ended up teaching the teacher so to say ;) So sex really isn’t an issue. Everyone knows how it works, what the consequences are and how to prevent it. Condoms are sold in every single shop, so are morning after pills. Half the girls are on birthcontrol pills as soon as they get a steady boyfriend.

So when I watch a program and parts of the human body get cut out I can’t help but roll my eyes. It’s just part of a body.

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Thu 27 Jan , 2005 10:29 pm
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TheLidlessEyes wrote:
*faints*

The fly, then the ointment in that particular case.

It was a bit more serious than that, Lidless. Two IV antibiotics, plus dressing changes twice a day!

Bet he'll never ever go without underwear again! Rather hard to avoid zippers completely, though.....


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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 27 Jan , 2005 10:36 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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I'm guessing he turned part Jewish, but now lives in an Amish community.

#This time we're gonna party like it's 1899#

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Impenitent
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Posted: Thu 27 Jan , 2005 11:30 pm
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Some stuff really is innate - and changes with the stage in the life cycle, I suspect.

Both my kids have lived in an environment where nudity has been treated in a matter-of-fact way. And we've camped a few summers at alternative eco-festivals where everybody's nude at some point - swimming in the river, mud bathing, body painting, just laying around in the grass etc. So my kids are used to nudity - other people's and their own.

My daughter (going on 12) and quite a reserved, self-contained girl, still has no problems changing in public, when buying clothes, at the beach, at the pool - anywhere, really. Though, interestingly, she insisted on using the women's change rooms last year, along with all the other girls when the school ran its 2-week swim intensive. I'm not sure whether it was changing in front of any boys that she was leery of or whether it was an instinctive knowledge that it just wouldn't have been considered cool by everyone else. Either way, as long as she's comfortable and has a grip on the social niceties - because she does have to live in this world, after all.

And I suspect she will become more self-conscious as she gets older (peer pressure) and her body develops more (awareness of her own sexuality, I guess).

My son, just 7, and an outrageous attention-seeker in most ways, will not change in public! He just won't. He's even going through a stage where he's shy of me (such a pity, because I love his luscious little bottom! :D ) but it's his body so he's entitled. But it's interesting because they live in the same house and have been exposed to the same parental philosophy.

In terms of sex education and their own sexuality - I had to train myself first. I found it quite a challenge actually, because as I said above, my mother never gave me any specifics - barely talked about sex except in oblique, romantic terms.

I started reading lots of introductory books to get a grip on the kind of language that would make sense to them - mind you, we've been using a huge range of terms to describe their anatomy from the beginning - so penis is also willy; testicles or scrotum are also balls, eggs, goolies; privates; vagina, vulva etc. (hmm. Just realised that clitoris hasn't been part of the discussions so far; will have to bring that up with my girlie at the next opportunity).

I began with the 'where do I come from' question. Interestingly, the first thing both kids wanted to know - and the girlie in particular with a degree of fear and concern - was how the vagina could possibly stretch enough to let out a baby. :mrgreen: (the answer: think of it as an elastic band which stretches out as you need it.)

Then we tackled the 'how did the baby get in there' question (pregnancy and gestation the way the textbooks tell it.)

Then the more loaded issue of the mechanics of sex and sexuality; now, with the girlie, we're talking about the emotional issues involved. We've looked at condoms and other forms of contraception but I'm letting her lead on this. She has to feel comfortable about it all and it's more important to me that she feels she can talk to me about anything rather than to make sure she has every scrap of information.

My son, at 7, has got a good grip on it all. His most recent question was how does an orgasm feel? :Q Well...um...hmpf! :confused:

The best I could come up with is that it's like a very, very nice sneeze, except it would be focussed around his genitals rather than his nose. I also asked him if he'd ever just played with his penis ('yes' - of course); and that would have felt nice? ('yes') Well...it's sort of like that feeling but better and better. He'd just have to wait til it happened to him and then he'd know - but it's very nice.

:neutral:

It bothers me that my daughter - now in her last year of primary school - hasn't had any formal sex education of any kind; not the human sexuality kind; not the fundamentals of reproduction kind; not the boys and girls and different kind; not even the relationships and society kind. In Oz the state sets a core curriculum and then the school can add what it likes to that core to round it out. While we're doing our best at home to provide her with information and a healthy attitude, I think it can't replace educated discussion with her peers in a non-confrontational atmosphere - like in a facilitated classroom discussion. I wish they'd do it. I think we have to wait til high school though - at which time the whole thing is much more charged due to raging hormones. Preferable, in my opinion, to do it earlier, while they still absorb things like sponges and before sex develops any kind of taboo aura.


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Areanor
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 12:45 am
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Imp wrote:
The best I could come up with is that it's like a very, very nice sneeze, except it would be focussed around his genitals rather than his nose.
That's such a genius description. I'll have to keep that in mind whenever my kiddies start to ask about.

:hug: to Ethel and Nin.

Guru, Strip poker? no prob.

When on the beach I usually do topless sunbathing. And my husband has no problems with it.

I was trying hard to think back when I discovered sexuality. I must confess I don't know. It's just part of life. The subject is discussed at school in biology. hmmm. And I think the most thing I learned out of a youth magazine where there was a page you could write to and ask questions. Such like: "Dr. Sommer, my penis is sooo small. I'm afraid to change when we go to swimming lessons at school for fear the others might laugh at me" or "Dr. Sommer, my penis is sooo large. Will it hurt my girl-friend when we have sex?" or "Dr. Sommer, What do I do if she wants to do a kiss with tongue?" - LOL - The magazine is still around - I think for 30 years now and by looking at it I find the kids ask the same questions as my generation did. I think, my children will find the same.....

I got a real shock when I found some porn magazines in the dresser drawer of my dad. Sex wasn't something I would have connected with my parents. Somehow I still can't imagine them doing it. Though it was interesting to look through that magazine and finding out what "it" looked like.

OH, and we had a good laugh when we were camping in the wild and one of our friends was peeing and a bee stung him. You guys might cringe.... yes exactly there...... Funny thing - the guy's name is translated "Wasp". *sniggers*

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 2:08 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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You all know, I'm sure, the Bulwer-Lytton Prize for the worst constructed opening sentence to a (ficticious) novel. Well there is one passage in literature that is worse than all such opening lines. Worse not in the sense of construction, but in another way.
Genesis 3:7-11 wrote:
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Most insidious passage *ever* in literature.

Alas it is duplicated to a degree in many other religions, though in many cases a pass-the-problem-to-the-women solution - OTT covering up a *woman's* body so the men can control themselves easier.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 3:01 am
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The irony being that it doesn't create any increase in self-control in any positive sense. Makes it all that more forbidden and can twist desire in the most dreadful ways.

And the progression of requiring modest dress, to covering up more and more of a woman's body and then to the physical separation of the sexes - purdah - can seriously stuff up any possibility of equal relationships because the woman is increasingly seen as Other.

I am aware of the argument that it heightens the sense of the sacred in orthodox Jewish law, the only one with which I am familiar, that is the point of the entire deal - to increase the sense of the sacred in the relationship and I personally know couples who insist that this is the case - the sense of respect and appreciation for one another is heightened by the prohibition to touch at certain times of the month and at any time in public.

I don't know; perhaps that works for those who have pure and enlightened souls. IMO, generally all it does is make women faceless and voiceless in the public realm and somehow of lesser import in the private and personal.


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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 4:21 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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No matter which country I'm in, no matter what the bye-law, screw 'em - I always go topless at the beach.

Last edited by Lidless on Fri 28 Jan , 2005 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 4:41 am
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TORC HAS changed its policy re. bare chested males, as most of you probably know, if you've seen my latest sig pic.

Theres' been quite a rash of bare-chested males in the Aunties thread in Talk lately. I forget who started it. We were having a discussion about male chest hair, and whether it was sexy or not... :mrgreen:


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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 5:17 am
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NOT!!!




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Griffon64
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 6:13 am
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IS TOO!!!

:P

*swoons delicately at the memory of some of the fuzzy-chested siggie pics* :mrgreen:

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Dindraug
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 8:39 am
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TheLidlessEyes wrote:
No matter which country I'm in, no matter what the bye-law, screw 'em - I always go topless at the beach.
No Lidless, you need to wear a bakini top at least, for decency or at least so some sun gets to your toes :mrgreen:

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Rholarowyn
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 11:59 am
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*Enters the thread to hiss at Leoba*


Hissssssssssssssssssss :P

LOL yeah watching Lady Chatterley Lover was a rather interesting experience. I wasn’t “shocked” at what I was seeing, I was “shocked” that this movie actually aired on British public television about 10 years earlier. And it wasn’t just the nudity, though that certainly wouldn’t be shown here, but it was also the sexual content both in action and the lines spoken that we would not see here today, at least not on the network channels. (I don’t know what all they are showing on cable these days.)

I’m not sure how much my views on sexuality and our (American) culture are based on society and how I was raised. How I see it now, both are/were filled with some serious hypocrisy, which has left me rather confused and very private in this aspect of life.

Leoba mentioned earlier in this thread about the Janet Jackson incident that happened last year at the Superbowl. I think it provides an example of the hypocrisy that is found in our country. The vast majority of people ranting and throwing fits because a woman breast had been exposed seemed to totally ignored the fact that the song being sung was about how the man was going to have her completely naked by the end of the song.

Why wasn’t the content of the song ever questioned? Why was it OK to sing about taking someone’s close off during the half time show, but it’s totally offensive to actually remove a piece of her clothing? This is just one of the messages that seem to permeate our culture. It’s ok to sing about it, it’s ok to talk about it, but shoot don’t show us anything on TV or other places that is even remotely close to doing it. (Well we really aren't supposed to talk about it either.)

I also agree with others here who have said the naked female body has been sexualized. And I recently had a friend point out to me that America is the only country that sees dancing as a sexual act. I’m not familiar with dancing in other cultures so I don’t know if this is entirely true, but I can say that she is right at least in how the American culture views dancing.

We are inundated with sexual images everyday here. TV, magazines, billboards, newspapers, etc. It’s like the white elephant in the room, we all know it’s there but we're supposed to pretend that it's not and we certainly better not talk about it.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 2:11 pm
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Griffon64 wrote:
*swoons delicately at the memory of some of the fuzzy-chested siggie pics* :mrgreen:
*has a strong urge to take a razor to all that icky hair* ;)




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Leoba
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 2:14 pm
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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R* wrote:
*has a strong urge to take a razor to all that icky hair* ;)
Stubble-rash :Q


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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 3:07 pm
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
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I was thinking about that. If it was a guy I was WITH, it'd prolly have to be waxed. I remember getting shredded as a child when I'd hug my dad after he had a few days' stubble. But just to look at, I don't care what method he used. :P

And yeah, I realize that it is more manly to have chest hair. I am not turned off by it all, it just depends on how harry, the type of hair, the color, how far down it extends, :suspicious: etc. I love Viggo Mortensen's chest hair. There's a great shot of it when you see how dim the evenstar has become in ROTK when he's talking to Elrond. That's fine. The Connery men are scary, however. Bare chests probably come across best on young beefcakes. I like Orlando Bloom's chest (wonder what his shag carpet is gonna look like in KINGDOM OF HEAVEN). Actually, hairy chests may look best on young beefcakes, too. :mrgreen: I lurrrrrrved that teen heartthrob photo of Sean Astin in the leather jacket and great abs. His chest hair was awesome and totally swoonable.

Yeah, it all depends. ;)




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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 28 Jan , 2005 3:19 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Funniest thing about the Janet Jackson incident - she didn't expose her nipple.

Sad. So sad. Both the reaction to it and the fact she didn't expose her nipple.

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