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Happy Secession Day

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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 3:00 pm
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jewelsong wrote:
And there are lots of reasons to move to another country besides your life being in peril.
I didn't say your life being in peril was the only reason. I said it was the only case that it would be appropriate to suggest such a huge course of action in such an immediate manner. Moving countries is a BIG DEAL and I don't at all agree with it being suggested in such an offhand or casual manner, especially to people who are unhappy with the state of their country. The Republicans did it to the Democrats and now the Democrats are doing it to the Republicans and either way, it's just plain wrong in my opinion.
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You seem to have had an incredibly difficult time in your move...but not everyone has such difficulties.
My move has been difficult but not incredibly difficult but its degree of difficulty has nothing to do with this conversation. However, my knowledge of the logistics of an international move is relevant because I know it is not something to be taken lightly due to legal, monetary, professional and personal reasons. There's soooooooooo much more to it than "Ugh, I hate my country, I'm gonna move to where everything will be perfect."

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jewelsong
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 3:09 pm
Just keep singin'!
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I don't think it is something to be taken lightly, either and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. And you are right, that responding with "Why don't you move?" to someone who is critical of the US is a poor response.

However - it IS a viable option and not impossible to do. And in some cases, I think a move to another country might result in a renewed appreciation for the US, in spite of its many flaws.

For myself, I have enjoyed my time living in the UK immensely and have missed very little about the US. When I move back finally, I know I will miss many things about England. If my kids did not live here, I might well be looking at becoming a permanent resident of the UK.


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Crucifer
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 4:09 pm
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Quote:
Though really, I don't think it's any of our business if he criticizes the US or not or is happy or negative in his posts as long as he's not personally attacking anyone. That goes for every single member of this board. None of us have any obligation to be something that someone else wants us to be.
I'm not saying that he should be something he's not. I'm just curious. The impression I've had from C_G in this thread is that he has a fundamental problem with the US as a whole. He has called independence day a celebration of 'agitation', which to me has negative connotations. Now, that's his right and prerogative. I'm not complaining about the fact that he seems to dislike the US as a whole, or the fact that he's voicing that dislike. But I would like to know, why, if he has that much of a problem with the place, doesn't he try to leave? I realise that emigration is a tough and expensive process, but if someone is that unhappy with where they are, then surely any alternative is better.

I'm also curious as to why you call Europe less libertarian than the US, Eru. As someone who's lived in the EU for my whole life, and follows its politics very closely, the majority of member states' governments seem to be very non-interventionist.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 6:16 pm
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Since I stand accused of the crime of seriousness and pessimism, I must stand forth and offer a defense.

In order to make things better, you have to look at where they are not better. I could sing praises for the ever diminishing good points of this country as the downward slide continues, but I'd prefer to stop the downward slide and work to make this country what it should have been instead of the soft-core fascist state it appears to be heading towards.

Because this country is unique, even if the people don't know it anymore. I'm not saying that history should be entirely from an American perspective and events judged solely on whether they are good or bad for the government of this country as some here wish to view things. I'm saying that this country was deliberately founded on certain ideas instead of on a common langugage that happened to inhabit a certain area for a certain length of time. This country isn't England because that's where the English lived or France because that's where the French lived. Nor is it founded on conquest, as many other countries are. True, wars have expanded the U.S., but the start of this country wasn't conquest.

It was founded on certain ideas that I truly cherish, and I see those ideas dying as every little aspect of our life is either taxed or regulated.

Dave is right, I celebrate the principles this country was founded on and lament how far we've strayed from them. I could be a Pollyanna and only look at the good points. That would undoubtedly please some in this thread. But my relationship with this country is much like that of someone who has a close relative with an addiction to a debilitating drug such as heroin or crack. I won't stand by and look only at the good points. I'd be after that person to quit the drugs. I could join jewelsong and crucifer and look at the good points only. Or I could join sauronsfinger and praise the trend towards soft-core fascism. But then from my point of view I'd be betraying the ideas and principles that make this country great.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Lidless
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 6:33 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Quote:
Or I could join sauronsfinger and praise the trend towards soft-core fascism
Difficult to stop posting a jibe like that, it seems.

Let's look at a few of the principles of fascism. I'll cherry-pick, since we're going soft-core.

Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak. Fascist governments (try to) forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government.

Doesn't that also sound a little like the Republican party? Especially the first part if you also apply it internally to their view of how the US should operate? So let's not bandy around silly epithets that can sting you right back.

Why it's called a party when no one's celebrating is beyond me.

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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 6:35 pm
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Crucifer wrote:
I'm also curious as to why you call Europe less libertarian than the US, Eru. As someone who's lived in the EU for my whole life, and follows its politics very closely, the majority of member states' governments seem to be very non-interventionist.
You want to answer this CG?

My understanding is that libertarians want less government involvement. Public healthcare, higher taxation, more social programs, etc make the EU look a lot less libertarian to me.

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Crucifer
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 6:37 pm
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Thanks, C_G. I clearly misunderstood your previous posts in this thread.
Quote:
I could join jewelsong and crucifer and look at the good points only.
I will say that I don't find that entirely fair. I certainly don't feel I was looking at good points only. In fact, I don't think I was looking at any points at all. Certainly, in my own everyday life, I avoid this absurd, closed-eye optimism that can be prevalent (and, I also find, which goes hand in hand with a reluctance to challenge and an aversion to being challenged). I do, however, think that it's important to look at good points and bad points, instead of just saying "this is what is bad. tut tut"
Quote:
My understanding is that libertarians want less government involvement. Public healthcare, higher taxation, more social programs, etc make the EU look a lot less libertarian to me.
Well then count me out of the group dubbed libertarians. Stick a red star on my forehead and call me a socialist, but I disagree with a government that sits on a high throne and makes laws without actually engaging in social issues. Just my opinion, you understand. Not an attack on anyone.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 8:12 pm
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CG - it was not I who asked these questions of you and it would have been nice if you had not folded me into the mix. But you did. So now I will defend my inclusion and your attack upon me.


from CG
Quote:
I celebrate the principles this country was founded on and lament how far we've strayed from them.
And in your opinion those principles would be what exactly? That is the key here.

Quote:
Or I could join sauronsfinger and praise the trend towards soft-core fascism. But then from my point of view I'd be betraying the ideas and principles that make this country great.
Please try defending your own views before you slur mine with your ridiculous interpretations, your deliberate reframing to create a Frankenstein monster of what I believe, your intentionally dishonest rewording of my positions, your continued distortion of my views and simply lies about me and what I stand for.

Speak for yourself about yourself.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 8:34 pm
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Lidless wrote:
Doesn't that also sound a little like the Republican party? Especially the first part if you also apply it internally to their view of how the US should operate? So let's not bandy around silly epithets that can sting you right back.
If I was a Republican, that might have stung.
Erunáme wrote:
Crucifer wrote:
I'm also curious as to why you call Europe less libertarian than the US, Eru. As someone who's lived in the EU for my whole life, and follows its politics very closely, the majority of member states' governments seem to be very non-interventionist.
You want to answer this CG?

My understanding is that libertarians want less government involvement. Public healthcare, higher taxation, more social programs, etc make the EU look a lot less libertarian to me.
Libertarianism isn't just economics. It's also civil liberties. While countries in Europe do tend to have public health care, higher taxation, and more social programs than the U.S. do countries in Europe are also less inclined to wage a drug war or to have moral laws against homosexuality or gay marriage, or moral laws against prostitution (or if they are in the books, less enforced), or to attempt to "police the world" by invanding countries that are not posing a threat. True U.K. and Germany have some free speech issues (in UK truth is not a defense against libel suits and in Germany people are forbidden to make absurd assertions about how the holocaust never happened), and the U.K. has become a lacky of the U.S. in terms of supporting our wars, but overall the civil side balances out to make Europe neither that much less nor that much more libertarian.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 9:36 pm
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I'd find it difficult to argue against the idea that we haven't moved away from many of our country's founding principles. This is most blatantly obvious in the constitution writers' strong desire for a limited, hands off gov't, something which was explicitly written into the constitution. The constitution explicitly limits our Federal government's power to only a specific a list of powers. If it wasn't on the list, did it was not legally within the Federal government's authority. 150 years ago, if we had wanted a National Health System, it would have required a constitutional amendment. Today, we can apparently create one with just a regular bill. Even if you prefer today's ideas over the old ones, it's hard to argue that it is what the constitution's writers intended.


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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 9:43 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
True U.K. and Germany have some free speech issues (in UK truth is not a defense against libel suits and in Germany people are forbidden to make absurd assertions about how the holocaust never happened), and the U.K. has become a lacky of the U.S. in terms of supporting our wars, but overall the civil side balances out to make Europe neither that much less nor that much more libertarian.
Good point.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 10:08 pm
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from Yovargas
Quote:
I'd find it difficult to argue against the idea that we haven't moved away from many of our country's founding principles. This is most blatantly obvious in the constitution writers' strong desire for a limited, hands off gov't, something which was explicitly written into the constitution. The constitution explicitly limits our Federal government's power to only a specific a list of powers. If it wasn't on the list, did it was not legally within the Federal government's authority. 150 years ago, if we had wanted a National Health System, it would have required a constitutional amendment. Today, we can apparently create one with just a regular bill. Even if you prefer today's ideas over the old ones, it's hard to argue that it is what the constitution's writers intended.
The Constitution was not written on stone tablets like the Ten Commandments were said to be. The Framers intended it to change and evolve as the nation changed and evolved. The US Constitution grants wide powers to the government if you read the document. Please read Article I, Section 8, clause 18 - the Necessary and Proper clause - to see where the authorization for something national health programs comes from.

The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

In addition to the actual wording, it can be and has been amended as needed or wanted to meet changes in the country.

We no longer live in a nation of 4 million farmers and small merchants. We no longer live in the 18th century and occupy a small slice along the Atlantic seaboard. We no longer are isolated from most of the rest of the world. We no longer live in an agrarian society where race and gender, where class and wealth, where birthright and property determined who was master and who was slave.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 10:41 pm
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Quote:
The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Only "the foregoing Powers" and the "Powers vested by this Constitution". That's it. Very limited federal government, explicitly stated, in accordance with the original principles of a hand-offs government. We no longer pursue those principles.


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 10:56 pm
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Here is Article I, Section 8, Clause 1

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

when you combine that with the Necessary and Proper Clause I have already cited, it covers a great amount of territory. But you do not have to listen to me as I only taught this stuff for over thirty years. Listen to the US Supreme Court who has the Constitutional power and responsibility to insure that every law and governmental action goes hand in hand with the US Constitution. They obviously differ with you since they have given their blessing to many things you seem to object strongly to.
Quote:
Very limited federal government, explicitly stated, in accordance with the original principles of a hand-offs government. We no longer pursue those principles.
You have cited nothing to show that
a) your interpretation is the correct one
b) the US Government is doing anything that against the Constitution

Of course we have limited government. Any government that does not exercise total power is by definition limited. You use the term VERY LIMITED. That is not in the Consitution.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 11:04 pm
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Combinging clause 1 and clause 18 still doesn't get you to today's situation without some very creative reading of those two clauses, and doing so then leaves one to wonder why the writers included clauses 2 through 17 if everything is covered by 1 and 18.
Quote:
But you do not have to listen to me as I only taught this stuff for over thirty years.
Those who can't do, teach.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 11:10 pm
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Let's see if sf will answer me one question honestly before I'm done talking to him:

Do you believe a national healthcare system would have been deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court 150 years ago?


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 11:10 pm
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from CG
Quote:
Those who can't do, teach.
CG - you seem to really want to get down in the mud today. First I promote fascism and then you attack my career. Okay. I guess its my turn to play your game.

And those who try and teach but fail miserably have to settle for other things.

Does this make you feel better now? Is this what you want to do here today?
Quote:
Combinging clause 1 and clause 18 still doesn't get you to today's situation without some very creative reading of those two clauses,
The Supreme Court, who has the job of judicial review, does not agree with you.
Quote:
Combinging clause 1 and clause 18 still doesn't get you to today's situation without some very creative reading of those two clauses, and doing so then leaves one to wonder why the writers included cluases 2 through 17 if everything is covered by 1 and 18.



I can find nobody here who made that claim. Why would you assert something that nobody else is claiming?

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Tue 07 Jul , 2009 11:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Tue 07 Jul , 2009 11:13 pm
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from Yovargas
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Do you believe a national healthcare system would have been deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court 150 years ago?
That would be the Supreme Court as it was constituted in 1859? WOW!!!! I have no idea what nine people who have been dead for over a century would have done with that current issue. Honest. I used to watch the Rocky & Bullwinkle TV show where a talking dog named Professor Peabody had a really nifty device called The Wayback Machine which could take modern people back into history. But it was only in a cartoon.

And quite frankly, whats the difference anyways?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Wed 08 Jul , 2009 12:24 pm
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FWIW, 150 years ago, the question of whether black people were put on Earth by God to be slaves for white people was open for debate.


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Crucifer
Post subject: Re: Happy Secession Day
Posted: Wed 08 Jul , 2009 12:36 pm
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Quote:
Combinging clause 1 and clause 18 still doesn't get you to today's situation without some very creative reading of those two clauses, and doing so then leaves one to wonder why the writers included cluases 2 through 17 if everything is covered by 1 and 18.



I can find nobody here who made that claim. Why would you assert something that nobody else is claiming?
While C_G has exaggerated a bit, it was, to a much lesser extent, implied in this bit here:
Quote:
when you combine that with the Necessary and Proper Clause I have already cited, it covers a great amount of territory.
Now, I think it's completely absurd to legislate today with the politics of 150 years ago. To do so is to suggest that nations are formed and remain the exact same way for all time, until they are invaded or whatever. Completely absurd. People who cling to a constitution with no thoughts that it may, at some point, need changing are fools. I'm not implying for a moment that people should comply with change they disagree with. They should fight it all they can, if they really don't want it, but not letting something change, simply because people died for 'that constitution' is absurd sentimentalism.

[rantoverwithapologies. I'm still sore about the failure of the Lisbon treaty, on similar grounds last year]

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