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Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America
Posted: Sat 16 Sep , 2006 5:20 am
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http://www.spp.gov/

I heard that Canadians were rioting over this piece of crap. Does anyone think it has a chance?

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Dawnnamira
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Posted: Sat 16 Sep , 2006 2:40 pm
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I don't really think so.

The differences between the three countries are huge and getting the different styles of government will be very hard.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sat 16 Sep , 2006 7:39 pm
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I imagine the SPP is connected to this, which I've been hearing about for some time:
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15497
http://www.nascocorridor.com/
http://www.keeptexasmoving.org/projects/i69/

I'm never sure whether to investigate this kind of stuff or just write it off as conspiracy theory. But there's a lesson in there; if you ever want to do something off-color, do it so big and so brazenly that no one will believe it.


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Sat 16 Sep , 2006 9:20 pm
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There's some huge factors in favor of this being real.

It's a .gov site. Bush has made statements about it. Fox has made statements about it. Harper has made statements about it.

Either the three of them are conspiring to make fools of conspiracy theorists, or the three of them are working on this.

Vison, where are you? I would like your opinion.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sun 17 Sep , 2006 1:33 am
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I'm sure it's real; I've just heard so many wild rumors and so many wild truths, it's hard to separate the fact from fiction.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 17 Sep , 2006 3:19 am
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It certainly could be real, though I had not read anything about it before.

There's a Eastern Seaboard Bypass in planning that will go just left of center through Pennsylvania ... I don't know where it will start and where it will end, but Atlanta seems a plausible starting point, and the New York-Canada traffic is so heavy I can only imagine that it would go right into Canada.

The US really is in need of more infrastructure. I'm not thrilled to have South American cocaine travelling non-stop through the Americas, but other than that we have long been in desperate need of a better highway system up through Central America and also more highways running N-S in the US.

Jn

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sun 17 Sep , 2006 6:27 am
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I'm obligated to put in my pitch for railroads before highways here. I'm at least happy that the "NAFTA superhighway" plans include those.


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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sun 02 Sep , 2007 4:55 pm
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Mexican trucking companies have the ok to start operating in the US:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070901/us_ ... ks_us_dc_1
Quote:
The Transportation Department welcomed the decision and said in a statement that allowing more direct shipments from Mexico will benefit U.S. consumers.
Yet another example of Americans selling their future down the river to save a couple cents at the checkout lane?


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vison
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Posted: Sun 02 Sep , 2007 7:02 pm
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Well, I'm here.

First, the crowd of protesters had more than the usual number of "infiltrating" cops. A scandal.

Second. Well, jeez, I don't even know where to start. As far as trade goes, I am basically a free-trader. Basically. Under the right conditions. But the conditions are never right. We Canadians feel, rightly or wrongly, that Canada was sold down the river in NAFTA. So MORE of NAFTA-type trade is not something we are in favour of. The playing field is not level, it is tipped massively to the US, and we resent being viewed as hewers of wood and drawers of water.

Third. The "security" aspect. Screw Mr. Bush and his "war on terror". Screw the idea that we Canadians have any part in this. Mr. Harper can cozy up to Mr. Bush and have the no-doubt pleasant illusion that he is "playing with the big boys" but those big boys do all the real stuff behind closed doors and let little Stephen in when it's all over and done with.

Too many things to discuss. The thing is that Canada is at the mercy of the US, even more than Mexico is. It makes me laugh to read that Americans are antsy about "selling their future" downriver to save a few pennies at the checkout. Why shouldn't you guys have to suck it up? We have, for decades. But don't worry, if any nation is going to benefit hugely from this, it won't be Canada or Mexico.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Sun 02 Sep , 2007 8:03 pm
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Americans are being "sold down the river" in the sense that shipping is being outsourced to Mexico, where the unions have no say and where worker and environmental protection laws are weaker. The DoT calls it a victory for consumers because shelf prices may be a little lower, at the cost of putting Americans out of jobs.

I have no doubt the Walton heirs and their ilk will do very well out of the deal. Ordinary Americans? Not so much.


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vison
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Posted: Sun 02 Sep , 2007 9:43 pm
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We share your fears about working conditions in Mexico. But, whether truthfully or not, we have many of the same concerns about the US, given the truth that unions and working people USED to have more influence in Canada than in the US. We see how Mr. Bush and, to a certain extent, previous presidents and various other governments have aided in the destruction of unions and workers' rights.

Just the other day some think tank or another published what I thought was a hysterical attack on Canada's supply management policies for dairy and poultry products. "It's costing consumers money!!!! Especially poorer consumers!!!!!!!" Well, cry me a river. Food is cheaper in Canada than anywhere in the world BUT the US, and I am sick to death of this constant attack on the farmers of North America, especially Canadians.

Sure, our farmers are protected. And why the hell shouldn't they be? Public health concerns ALONE ought to be enough to want Canadians eating Canadian food. Right at this very minute, believe it or not, the Canadian food inspection people are considering allowing Chinese poultry products into Canada!!!!!!! My eyes nearly fell out of my head when I read that. They can't even make godamned dog food without killing dogs and we're going to let them send us CHICKEN? I get spasmodic when I think about it.

Call it what you will, protectionism or subsidies or anything else, but I think people should eat food grown by their own farmers. I think this is true for Americans as well as Canadians. But Americans, since they "manage" their farm subsidies and protectionism differently, keep ranting and raving that we aren't playing "fair" by keeping American milk and eggs out of Canada -- so far. Fair? What has fair got to do with it? Americans only shout "not fair" when they're not winning. Sorry if that sounds harsh and it certainly isn't an attack on Americans here at B77, but when it comes to farm trade? It's true.

I do not want to be eating Chinese chicken and drinking American milk. I don't mind eating Mexican strawberries when there are no BC strawberries, but I bitterly resent that right now I can't buy BC plums or apples in our chain stores: they are full of plums and apples from the US or Mexico or even Chile for the luvva pete.

Some people care about eating local food. But there aren't enough of us. And that's true in the US as well as here. When the farms are all gone, or are all in the hands of Cargill and Monsanto, what will we do? We will do what our governments will have forced upon us: rely on industrial food produced on industrial farms or imported from nations where standards of cleanliness and environmental concerns don't even exist. Where the people who grow our food are little better than slaves, who won't even be able to eat what they grow.

Jeez. :rage:

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Wilma
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Posted: Sun 02 Sep , 2007 10:39 pm
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I agree with you Vison. Farms falling into hands of Monsantos *shivers*

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Mon 03 Sep , 2007 4:04 am
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vison wrote:
We share your fears about working conditions in Mexico. But, whether truthfully or not, we have many of the same concerns about the US, given the truth that unions and working people USED to have more influence in Canada than in the US. We see how Mr. Bush and, to a certain extent, previous presidents and various other governments have aided in the destruction of unions and workers' rights.
Precisely; and I think this is a perfect example of that sort of thing. My main concern, though, is that this is yet another step toward destroying what remains of our self-sufficiency and local economic infrastructure, and it's coming at precisely the point in history when we're going to start needing it again. And why are we doing it? Either to save consumers a few cents here and there (if you buy that angle), or so the already obscenely rich can become even more so.


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Griffon64
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Posted: Mon 03 Sep , 2007 3:45 pm
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Until consumers stop stuffing themselves and their garage to obesity with cheap imported foods and trinkets and start buying locally, this kind of thing will not reverse.

Lots more consumers will have to be run out of jobs first because they'll see how expensive those few cents cheaper really was.

It irritates me to see a whole nation seemingly willing to risk its first world lifestyles for trinkets and a few cents less. Is this the same people having a cow over maybe having energy-saving light bulbs become mandatory, willing to let the government and the rich outsource job after job after job? Amazing.

Anyway, enough knee-jerk yakking about stuff I don't know enough about to be hanging out in the Manwe-type forums.

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vison
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Posted: Mon 03 Sep , 2007 4:11 pm
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The thing is, though. The thing is, if we are ever to have "peace" on Earth, we have to work toward no nationalism. Does this mean "no nations"? I don't know. But it is a hard question, and it's getting answered every day whether WE, the people, take part in the discussion or not.

The part that bothers me, bothers me a VERY great deal, is that what they call "globalization" puts such enormous power in the hands of a few large companies. Look at Walmart!!! Now, do we trust Walmart to run the world? On the one hand, could Walmart do a worse job than those presently running things? On the other hand, are we heading for a future where we are all in bondage, literal bondage, to Walmart? I am all for the free market, but the "free market" depends on many conditions that Walmart simply erases.

The people of China see how we live. The people of China are, to an astonishing degree, part of the reason WHY we live so well. They want to live like us. But, you know, the Earth cannot support that. In fact, the Earth cannot support US living like we do.

Africans are hugely wealthy in resources. But so far Africans don't get to control those resources and scarcely benefit at all from their wealth. Not only that, look at Darfur. The classic and dreadful example of too many people trying to farm too little land. Africa is rich, but not in farmland.

I wonder what will happen? I suspect it will not be a great, thumping change, but the slow and miserable wearing away of our world that we are seeing now.

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Mon 03 Sep , 2007 4:25 pm
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I completely missed the fact that this was happening right after Labor Day. Even though there are a bunch of reasons this is happening now as opposed to some other time, it's hard to see that as anything other than a conscious up-yours.


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