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The United States is Broke

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Wed 17 Jun , 2009 4:49 am
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According to the article, it is the case that 1/6 are government aid. I feel it short-changed the reader by not including government employees.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Wed 17 Jun , 2009 10:20 am
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Quote:
One out of every six income dollars is from the government. That's unsustainable.
The first is presented as a fact. The second is presented as an opinion about that fact. What other information or expert analysis do we have to support that opinion? Nothing in the linked article discusses sustainability.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Thu 18 Jun , 2009 9:19 pm
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The American Empire Is Bankrupt
Quote:
This week marks the end of the dollar’s reign as the world’s reserve currency. It marks the start of a terrible period of economic and political decline in the United States. And it signals the last gasp of the American imperium. That’s over. It is not coming back. And what is to come will be very, very painful.

Barack Obama, and the criminal class on Wall Street, aided by a corporate media that continues to peddle fatuous gossip and trash talk as news while we endure the greatest economic crisis in our history, may have fooled us, but the rest of the world knows we are bankrupt. And these nations are damned if they are going to continue to prop up an inflated dollar and sustain the massive federal budget deficits, swollen to over $2 trillion, which fund America’s imperial expansion in Eurasia and our system of casino capitalism. They have us by the throat. They are about to squeeze.

There are meetings being held Monday and Tuesday in Yekaterinburg, Russia, (formerly Sverdlovsk) among Chinese President Hu Jintao, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and other top officials of the six-nation Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The United States, which asked to attend, was denied admittance. Watch what happens there carefully. The gathering is, in the words of economist Michael Hudson, “the most important meeting of the 21st century so far.”

It is the first formal step by our major trading partners to replace the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. If they succeed, the dollar will dramatically plummet in value, the cost of imports, including oil, will skyrocket, interest rates will climb and jobs will hemorrhage at a rate that will make the last few months look like boom times. State and federal services will be reduced or shut down for lack of funds. The United States will begin to resemble the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe. Obama, endowed by many with the qualities of a savior, will suddenly look pitiful, inept and weak. And the rage that has kindled a handful of shootings and hate crimes in the past few weeks will engulf vast segments of a disenfranchised and bewildered working and middle class. The people of this class will demand vengeance, radical change, order and moral renewal, which an array of proto-fascists, from the Christian right to the goons who disseminate hate talk on Fox News, will assure the country they will impose.
The biggest support of the value of the dollar is that it is the reserve currency of the world. But the rising economies, such as China and Brazil, as well as Russia (ever in its own category) are not pleased with the value of the dollar.

While it appears that the bonds that two Japanese individuals were sneaking into Switzerland were forgeries, even as forgeries they undermine the dollar.

_________________

It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Thu 18 Jun , 2009 9:31 pm
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Wasn't the outcome of that meeting that they decided there wasn't anything to replace it with yet?


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Thu 18 Jun , 2009 9:40 pm
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Yes. What the new system will be is not yet determined, but the flight from the dollar has begun. The old guard currencies are falling to the rising economies. Based on the multi-polar agreements being signed it looks like we're moving to a period where no single reserve currency exists.

Even a currency basket that includes dollars is bad for the value of the dollar.

Between that and the recent auction of $104 billion of debt by the treasury I really am glad I have some money put away in gold and silver.

_________________

It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Thu 18 Jun , 2009 10:35 pm
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Quote:
Between that and the recent auction of $104 billion of debt by the treasury I really am glad I have some money put away in gold and silver.
1) what is suppose to happen that concerns you so much?


2) And when it does happen what will that limited amount of gold and silver then be expected to do for you?

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Thu 18 Jun , 2009 11:30 pm
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Are we supposed to be surprised that the dollar is in serious decline? It is the ebb and flow of the history. Even the mighty Roman empire fell.

That article seems very reliable, too. Not laced with bias at all. I can't wait for all of that to happen because those libertarians have amazing powers of clairvoyance.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Fri 19 Jun , 2009 2:37 am
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
Are we supposed to be surprised that the dollar is in serious decline? It is the ebb and flow of the history. Even the mighty Roman empire fell.

That article seems very reliable, too. Not laced with bias at all. I can't wait for all of that to happen because those libertarians have amazing powers of clairvoyance.
There are people who are surprised by the decline of the dollar though. For the last six decades the dollar has been the dominant currency in the world, and some people have gotten so used to it that they cannot think of it being any other way. For decades the dollar was the standard by which other currencies were measured, and if you wanted to know how much a certain currency was worth you gave that rating in dollars.

Yes, even the mighty Roman Empire fell, but there are always those caught flat-footed by history's inevitable progress, believing that if something hasn't happened yet then it won't happen at all. And those who are in authority have such an aversion to the idea of the dollar weakening that they are going to try to find a way to rationalize away any sign that the dollar is going to fall. Probably right up until the fall of the Roman Empire there were those who thought it would stand forever.

sauronsfinger wrote:
Quote:
Between that and the recent auction of $104 billion of debt by the treasury I really am glad I have some money put away in gold and silver.
1) what is suppose to happen that concerns you so much?

2) And when it does happen what will that limited amount of gold and silver then be expected to do for you?
Why? What's the point? Why should I bother? You never actually discuss. You don't even debate. If a discussion has a topic, you are always there discussing everything else, even if it's just a stupid typo. All you do is look for an opportunity to divert the discussion and to flame, to try to taunt those who disagree with you into a bannable reaction. Go ahead and write my answer for me, attribute it to me, and then publicly worry that I might murder someone based on what you wrote for me.

_________________

It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Fri 19 Jun , 2009 11:41 am
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CG posted that he was glad he had some gold and silver.

I posted and asked
Quote:
1) what is suppose to happen that concerns you so much?

2) And when it does happen what will that limited amount of gold and silver then be expected to do for you?
CG has responded with
Quote:
Why? What's the point? Why should I bother?
Because you never actually demonstrated any connection between your criticism of US economic policy and what you believe is the resultant failing dollar and your holding of some gold and silver. You mentioned both as if there were some connection, but you never made that connection. I was hoping you could connect those dots.

For several generations now, Americans have not needed to have either gold or silver and could lead rich and full lives of prosperity and wealth. Are you saying that all this is going to change? What is going to change it? And how will gold and silver suddenly then become important when it is now merely a luxurious option in a portfolio that is not at all necessary?

Quote:
All you do is look for an opportunity to divert the discussion and to flame, to try to taunt those who disagree with you into a bannable reaction.
I have no ability to ban anyone. Because I have no power to ban I have never banned anyone. Any "reaction" that you or anyone else may have is something that is within your own powers to control - not mine. I do not type the words for you. nobody does except you.
Quote:
Go ahead and write my answer for me, attribute it to me, and then publicly worry that I might murder someone based on what you wrote for me.
I have never written any answer for you and then placed your name on it attributing it to you. Sadly CG, you have done that with me complete with a quote box. Perhaps you are confusing your own actions with something you falsely claim that I want to do?

If you do not wish to discuss your posts with me, that is your right and I respect that decision. If you do wish to post further ideas, please respect my right to respond to your posts in the same way that any member of this board can respond to any other members posted ideas.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Fri 19 Jun , 2009 12:22 pm
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Presumably what CG is worried about is inflation, and what he hopes his gold will do is hold its value. It's true that Americans have never needed to own gold or silver to get by, but that doesn't mean there haven't been times when they'd have done better if they did. For example, many people who lost it all during the Great Depression and the smaller recessions since might have been able to at least hold it together if some of their money had been in precious metals instead of stocks or failing banks.*

*Correct me if any of this is wrong, but my understanding is that the dollar was still backed by gold during the GD and as a result owning gold would have been no different from having cash in your mattress (just harder to carry). But it was still better than owning stocks or a bank account. Today with our fiat currency, it is possible for the dollar to crash while gold holds steady or gains; something that would have been impossible before Breton Woods.


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Fri 19 Jun , 2009 1:01 pm
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What a metaphor:
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/ ... y_usa.html

Several years ago, Syracuse NY decided to build a mall/tourist attraction to rival Mall of America. They named it, of all things, Destiny USA. Well, their credit's been cut off, the workers haven't been paid in months, and now it looks like the half-finished building is being boarded up. Seems destiny has changed.

What would be really great is if the citizens of Syracuse could reclaim the location and do something valuable and forward-looking with it.


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Fri 19 Jun , 2009 1:49 pm
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That is an interesting article Dave - I had not heard about that development in NY. Thanks for putting it up here. Even before the recession took hold, the day of the huge megamall was on the decline. Just like the shipping centers before them had a heyday of twenty years, it seems that the megamalls also had a high point. I know of two major malls that were being planned for SE Michigan that have been either postponed or outright cancelled. It seems like the big box retail store is now the hot item.

Chris Rock does a hilarious routine where he talks about malls and how they go through economic and class stages until they are boarded up and closed. Like all good topical humor, its both funny and sad.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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RELStuart
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Fri 19 Jun , 2009 9:34 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
The American Empire Is Bankrupt
Quote:
This week marks the end of the dollar’s reign as the world’s reserve currency. It marks the start of a terrible period of economic and political decline in the United States. And it signals the last gasp of the American imperium. That’s over. It is not coming back. And what is to come will be very, very painful.

Barack Obama, and the criminal class on Wall Street, aided by a corporate media that continues to peddle fatuous gossip and trash talk as news while we endure the greatest economic crisis in our history, may have fooled us, but the rest of the world knows we are bankrupt. And these nations are damned if they are going to continue to prop up an inflated dollar and sustain the massive federal budget deficits, swollen to over $2 trillion, which fund America’s imperial expansion in Eurasia and our system of casino capitalism. They have us by the throat. They are about to squeeze.

There are meetings being held Monday and Tuesday in Yekaterinburg, Russia, (formerly Sverdlovsk) among Chinese President Hu Jintao, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and other top officials of the six-nation Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The United States, which asked to attend, was denied admittance. Watch what happens there carefully. The gathering is, in the words of economist Michael Hudson, “the most important meeting of the 21st century so far.”

It is the first formal step by our major trading partners to replace the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. If they succeed, the dollar will dramatically plummet in value, the cost of imports, including oil, will skyrocket, interest rates will climb and jobs will hemorrhage at a rate that will make the last few months look like boom times. State and federal services will be reduced or shut down for lack of funds. The United States will begin to resemble the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe. Obama, endowed by many with the qualities of a savior, will suddenly look pitiful, inept and weak. And the rage that has kindled a handful of shootings and hate crimes in the past few weeks will engulf vast segments of a disenfranchised and bewildered working and middle class. The people of this class will demand vengeance, radical change, order and moral renewal, which an array of proto-fascists, from the Christian right to the goons who disseminate hate talk on Fox News, will assure the country they will impose.
The biggest support of the value of the dollar is that it is the reserve currency of the world. But the rising economies, such as China and Brazil, as well as Russia (ever in its own category) are not pleased with the value of the dollar.

While it appears that the bonds that two Japanese individuals were sneaking into Switzerland were forgeries, even as forgeries they undermine the dollar.

While there may be some good points being made by the author this sounds like it could have come from the propaganda ministry from a communist county during the cold war.

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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 6:08 pm
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31748428/

Questions:
1) Is there anyone who didn't see this coming?
2) Why did they overbuild the things anyway? (rhetorical question; I think we all know the answer)


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Jude
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 6:14 pm
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One of the interesting things I learned from Dave's article: there's actually a Spam museum. :Q

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 6:40 pm
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Dave_LF wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31748428/

Questions:
1) Is there anyone who didn't see this coming?
2) Why did they overbuild the things anyway? (rhetorical question; I think we all know the answer)
Actually there were those who didn't see this coming. Many court economists didn't see this coming, from Krugman on down. Their education, as broad as it is, was lacking in business cycle theory - the one thing Austrians concentrate on.

Overbuilding those looked like a good idea at the time. That's what misleading economic indicators do.

Those of us who warned otherwise were considered doom-and-gloom prophets who wanted everything to collapse.

_________________

It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 8:05 pm
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I exclude predictions based on religion or pop economics (but I repeat myself).


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 8:24 pm
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from Dave LF
Quote:
I exclude predictions based on religion or pop economics (but I repeat myself).
most excellent..... :toast:

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 8:44 pm
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Hopefully this won't result in having the toast withdrawn, but I was essentially agreeing with his assessment of Krugman et al (I actually had some wires crossed and was imagining fellow NYT columnist Friedman and his flat world, but the two share a faith in the divine power of infinite growth). I have no position on the Austrians, not having heard much of what they have to say.


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 8:49 pm
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*snerk*

SF was toasting you because he thought you were calling the Austrians the pop-economists.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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