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The United States is Broke

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 8:53 pm
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Sometimes people can be correct without even knowing it. And Dave LF just showed us that. The term pop economists apply perfectly to the Austrians. And the toast is still there.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Dave_LF
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 13 Jul , 2009 9:00 pm
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How very awkward. I suppose the only solution is to disagree with everyone. There are at least two ways to turn economics into religion. One is to imagine that the free market will always automagically find the best solution to any problem. Some problems don't have solutions, and while it may be approximately true that a free market finds efficient solutions when they exist, as I human I prefer humane solutions to efficient ones when the two concepts come into conflict (as they often do). A second way is by imagining that growth can and should go on forever, and that the solution to any type of imbalance is to grow the lesser thing (as opposed to shrinking the bigger one).

Glad the toast stands. Days like today, it's nice to have a drink when you get home. :toast:


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 03 Aug , 2009 3:53 am
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Given that the Keynesians are saying "looks like the recession is over, the GDP only shrank by 1% last quarter" I'll join both of you in toasting that the Keynesians are pop economists.

:toast:

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 03 Aug , 2009 11:00 am
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Wasn't Kenya where the Birthers claim President Obama was born? What do the Kenyans have to do with this? ;)

The idea that some fringe radicals see the destruction of our economy and way of life as comforting and their only chance of political success is truly frightening.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 03 Aug , 2009 3:40 pm
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CG wrote:
Keynesians
sf wrote:
Kenyans
[ img ]


sf wrote:
The idea that some fringe radicals see the destruction of our economy and way of life as comforting and their only chance of political success is truly frightening.
But as fringe radical Rahm Emanuel said, don't let a crisis go to waste.
MariaHobbit wrote:
SF wrote:
I really hate to spoils anyone dreams here but there is not going to be any collapse.
You still don't get it, SF! It's not a dream- it's a dread. It's not a wish, it's a fear. History is full of collapses of civilizations- why do you think we are immune? Because we have cool technology? That technology is based on petroleum- a finite resource. Our civilization is MORE fragile than Ancient Egypt or Greece or Rome or the Incan & Mayan civilizations because all our advances hinge on fossil fuels.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 03 Aug , 2009 4:55 pm
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CG
Were you born without any gene to develop a sense of humor? :bang:

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Sun 13 Sep , 2009 3:45 pm
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Gold has pushed past $1k this week.

It was a great psychological barrier.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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vison
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Sun 13 Sep , 2009 5:32 pm
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
Gold has pushed past $1k this week.

It was a great psychological barrier.
Gold was $815+ in 1980 or 1981. That was a hell of a lot more than $1,000 now.

Means only that the US dollar has tanked some more.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Sun 13 Sep , 2009 6:06 pm
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I've been saying the US dollar will tank some more.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Thu 19 Nov , 2009 10:26 pm
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Good news everyone, the Paul-Greyson amendment to the Audit the Fed Bill was passed, undoing the damage done by Mel Watts in the financial services committee.

I'm not sure how many committees are left before this is forced to a floor vote, but the passage of the Paul-Greyson amendment was a clear signal that gutting the bill in committee won't work.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Mon 30 Nov , 2009 11:28 pm
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Gerald Celente interview

Like Schiff, Faber, and Rogers, he also predicted our current mess.

He's predicting things will get a lot worse.

Rogers and Schiff are on one side, predicting that the recession is far from over. Faber and Celente are on the other, predicting that the recession is far from over and also predicting war or massive civil unrest.

As an optimist, I'm wishing Schiff and Rogers be the ones who are right, but even then the best case scenario is more economic depression. So far the lack of sales on Black Friday is not a good sign. Many businesses use the expanded profits of the Christmas holiday season to hold them over the rest of the year, and if Black Friday is any indication those expanded profits won't be appearing.

Those businesses that have been holding out saying "Christmas will save us" will experience a bitter January.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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vison
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 12:04 am
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I'm not spending any money this Christmas but it's got nothing to do with the recession, it's a personal thing. The last few years I've spent less and less and this year the only money I'm spending is on the kids and not much at that. I suppose at bottom it's a hatred of the consumer culture - which is rather ironic, considering how I make my living . . . :roll

However, lots and lots of other people aren't spending any money either. People are frightened, and rightly so.

I don't agree with everything you post or everyone you quote, but I do think we haven't seen the last of the bad days. :(

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 12:13 am
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Vison is correct in that we are only fighting our way out of a very bad recession. Sadly, it was many years in the making and we have done little to bring back the strong government regulation needed to rectify the situation and try to make sure it does not happen again. For many, the recovery will be slow, and for some there will be no real recovery.

We are facing a future where corporations and their ideological enablers and apologists are more than willing to take even a greater share of American wealth at the expense of a healthy middle class. We must begin aggressively regulating corporations, taxing higher income wealthy people at much higher rates, protecting American jobs and businesses, and strengthening labor unions and worker rights.

Wall Street had its recovery courtesy of the taxpayer. Now Main Street needs it recovery and those who made fortunes on or with the help of Wall Street corporations must return the favor.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 1:10 am
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vison wrote:
I'm not spending any money this Christmas but it's got nothing to do with the recession, it's a personal thing. The last few years I've spent less and less and this year the only money I'm spending is on the kids and not much at that. I suppose at bottom it's a hatred of the consumer culture - which is rather ironic, considering how I make my living . . . :roll

However, lots and lots of other people aren't spending any money either. People are frightened, and rightly so.

I don't agree with everything you post or everyone you quote, but I do think we haven't seen the last of the bad days. :(
They are frightened, but are also starting to see the man behind the curtain. They are seeing the hand of the Federal Reserve debasing the currency, and that is why efforts to audit that organization are finally gaining traction in congress - in spite of the best efforts of the likes of Pelosi and Frank.

They're even seeing through the phony "you must choose between Mercantilism (wealth redistribution for the rich) and Welfarism (wealth redistribution for the poor)" divide that has fooled people for decades. They're starting to wonder why wealth must be redistributed from them to anybody else.

Even the Monetarists have stopped to ask if perhaps too much money has been created from nothing and dumped on the politically connected, leaving the Keynesians alone in saying that all of these stimulus packages are good. And even the Keynesians see that this isn't over. Economists, both those who have been proven right and those in government are predicting a "double dip" recession, although for different reasons.

Those who have come to believe they have a moral right to the wealth of others are not going to be happy as more people wake up.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 1:28 am
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from Dave LF
Quote:
There are at least two ways to turn economics into religion. One is to imagine that the free market will always automagically find the best solution to any problem. Some problems don't have solutions, and while it may be approximately true that a free market finds efficient solutions when they exist, as I human I prefer humane solutions to efficient ones when the two concepts come into conflict (as they often do).
Economics and the free market are already the religion of many who helped create the environment for the current mess we are in. And Dave is 100% right in that we need humane solutions to fix the problems we have found ourselves in due to the religious fanatics of the economic right wing.



The reality for America in the 21st century is that we have indeed engaged in serious wealth distribution schemes in the name of ideology. What now must happen in America is to have a strong middle class and vibrant government services, is for a serious tax increase to hit the people who did well during the second Gilded Age of the last nine years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/1 ... 59516.html

Quote:
Income inequality in the United States is at an all-time high, surpassing even levels seen during the Great Depression, according to a recently updated paper by University of California, Berkeley Professor Emmanuel Saez. The paper, which covers data through 2007, points to a staggering, unprecedented disparity in American incomes. On his blog, Nobel prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman called the numbers "truly amazing."

Though income inequality has been growing for some time, the paper paints a stark, disturbing portrait of wealth distribution in America. Saez calculates that in 2007 the top .01 percent of American earners took home 6 percent of total U.S. wages, a figure that has nearly doubled since 2000.

As of 2007, the top decile of American earners, Saez writes, pulled in 49.7 percent of total wages, a level that's "higher than any other year since 1917 and even surpasses 1928, the peak of stock market bubble in the 'roaring" 1920s.'"

Beginning in the economic expansion of the early 1990s, Saez argues, the economy began to favor the top tiers American earners, but much of the country missed was left behind. "The top 1 percent incomes captured half of the overall economic growth over the period 1993-2007," Saes writes.

Despite a rising stock market, largely growing employment and a historic housing boom things were not nearly so rosy for the rest of U.S. workers. This trend, according to Saez, only accelerated during the George W. Bush's tenure as President:

"...while the bottom 99 percent of incomes grew at a solid pace of 2.7 percent per year from 1993-2000, these incomes grew only 1.3 percent per year from 2002-2007. As a result, in the economic expansion of 2002-2007, the top 1 percent captured two thirds of income growth."
One of the first things we must do is to pop the cap on FICA tax deductions used to support Social Security. The current system is a regressive tax which hits working people but pretty much spares most of the wealth of the rich. It violates every principle of progressive taxation known to man. This, combined with adding more tax on the income of the rich would go a long ways to restoring the American middle class and take away power from the corporate class and their toadies and lackeys who serve their interests in the name of ideology.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 3:14 am
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
vison wrote:
I'm not spending any money this Christmas but it's got nothing to do with the recession, it's a personal thing. The last few years I've spent less and less and this year the only money I'm spending is on the kids and not much at that. I suppose at bottom it's a hatred of the consumer culture - which is rather ironic, considering how I make my living . . . :roll

However, lots and lots of other people aren't spending any money either. People are frightened, and rightly so.

I don't agree with everything you post or everyone you quote, but I do think we haven't seen the last of the bad days. :(
They are frightened, but are also starting to see the man behind the curtain. They are seeing the hand of the Federal Reserve debasing the currency, and that is why efforts to audit that organization are finally gaining traction in congress - in spite of the best efforts of the likes of Pelosi and Frank.

They're even seeing through the phony "you must choose between Mercantilism (wealth redistribution for the rich) and Welfarism (wealth redistribution for the poor)" divide that has fooled people for decades. They're starting to wonder why wealth must be redistributed from them to anybody else.

Even the Monetarists have stopped to ask if perhaps too much money has been created from nothing and dumped on the politically connected, leaving the Keynesians alone in saying that all of these stimulus packages are good. And even the Keynesians see that this isn't over. Economists, both those who have been proven right and those in government are predicting a "double dip" recession, although for different reasons.

Those who have come to believe they have a moral right to the wealth of others are not going to be happy as more people wake up.

I agree with the idea that there are many many many Americans who believe they have a god given moral right to wealth. However, the Constitution only says the pursuit of happiness, not here's an escalade and 3000 square foot house. There is a huge difference. Sadly most don't think that.

My other thought is we as the US have built our wealth on nothing basically. Paper money that represents not much at this point. We have no real industry so we are having to make up industry via the stimulus package jobs. You'd think we'd learn if we want to have we must be able to sell something besides Britney Spears and McDonalds to the world.


Vison

Did you see the Black Friday Video I posted?

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 4:00 am
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The only quibble I have with what you wrote is that pursuit of happiness is in the Declaration of Independence instead of the Constitution. Other than that you're right. But in our mixed Mercantilist / Keynesian / Welfarist economy people have become convinced that they deserve happiness and not merely the right to seek it. They feel they deserve it without having to to anything to get their McMansion and guaranteed income.

The credit card is maxed out though. There won't be any more free lunches. You're exactly right, we need a domestic industrial base. Otherwise we'll be left with nothing but ever growing piles of worthless paper.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

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vison
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 4:13 am
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I just watched it, Ara-anna. :LMAO:

We all know what's wrong, but, as usual we can't agree on the solution.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Tue 01 Dec , 2009 1:21 pm
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Vison is correct.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125954924769768987.html

This article demonstrates the gulf over what constitutes a solution.

I know very few Americans who can be stereotyped as those who want a free ride or instant wealth as their birthright. What I see is Americans who have played by the rules, worked hard to try to get ahead, and have ended up falling farther and farther behind as Reaganomics and the drive to decrease government regulations have destroyed sectors of our economy. These Americans see corporate America enriching itself and enriching its overpaid executives with millions and billions of dollars of money that has come from the Middle Class.

Wall Street is rolling in money. Main Street is rolling with pain.

The solution is not outdated ideological philosophies based on an almost religious belief in "free markets" and other such nonsense. We need practical and pragmatic solutions to get the middle class of America back to vibrancy and health.

Included those pragmatic solutions would be
*** a new tax policy which targets those who benefitted the most from the last round of foolish tax cuts including a transactions tax on stock purchases and sales
*** removal of the FICA cap to tax all income at the same rate for Social Security
*** a strong governmental policy with teeth to protect domestic jobs
*** strong government regulation of the financial markets to prevent a future collapse
*** increased protection for the rights of working people and their choice of a union to represent them

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: The United States is Broke
Posted: Wed 02 Dec , 2009 2:32 am
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Bah, you just want socialism, sf. How about good ol' pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? That works for everyone, right? Wasn't everyone a tycoon during the days of laissez faire?

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