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Wildstein's List, or why Polish people no longer google sex.

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Rodia
Post subject: Wildstein's List, or why Polish people no longer google sex.
Posted: Thu 03 Feb , 2005 4:07 pm
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It might not be world news, but it's stirred up my country to the point that 'sex' is no longer the most common word typed into search engines.

What do you think this journalist wanted to accomplish? And should he have done this? He's definitely created a huge mess, and dredged up a lot of shit.

From Yahoo:
Quote:
Sunday January 30, 9:21 PM

Polish journalist reveals secret service records

By Wojciech Moskwa

WARSAW (Reuters) - A Polish journalist has distributed a list of 240,000 names from the records of the communist-era's secret service, fuelling a pre-election debate over politicians' connections to the former communist regime.

Investigations into links between politicians and the former communist spy apparatus are becoming a major election issue in this year's parliamentary and presidential polls.

All Polish politicians have to reveal any links to communist special services and if they are found to have lied by a special tribunal, they face a ban from public office.

Bronislaw Wildstein, a conservative journalist at heavyweight daily Rzeczpospolita, said he had copied the list of names -- the largest inventory to be published from the database of a state institute set up to probe past political crimes. He then distributed it to colleagues.

It was not clear whether any top political names were on the list but mainstream politicians denounced the journalist's action as irresponsible and potentially harmful.

"These documents have to be reread and verified, but before that happened the list appeared," Bogulslaw Sonik, member of European parliament from the centre-right Civic Platform, told private radio Zet on Sunday. "I fear a moment of injustice, for some a moment of revenge."

STRUGGLE WITH PAST

For years Poland has struggled with communist era files, with accusations over suspected collaboration hitting both the political descendents of the 1980s pro-democracy Solidarity movement and former communists turned social democrats.

The National Remembrance Institute (IPN), the owner of the archives, warned not to make too many conclusions from the list.

It said the list was not complete and did not make clear who was an operative, a potential collaborator, a victim or just a person noted in the communist era files.

IPN chief Leon Kieres said Wildstein's actions were legal but that he feared people on the list would be branded as spies.

"It would be a crime and a sign of moral degeneration for anyone to claim this to be a list of communist Poland's secret service agents and their collaborators. The IPN has no such list," Kieres told private news channel TVN24.

According to Polish law, only historians, journalists and those who can prove they were wronged by the communist authorities have access to IPN archives.

The institute then verifies its documents before giving its opinion about whether or not a person was a communist agent.

Last month, a vetting tribunal said the head of the ruling ex-communist Democratic Left Alliance had lied by denying links to communist-era intelligence.

The ruling forced Jozef Oleksy, who denies the charges and has appealed the verdict, to step down from the powerful post of parliamentary speaker and hurt the leftists' bid to rebuild their popularity in the run-up to elections.

In anther high-profile case, Malgorzata Niezabitowska, the spokeswoman for Poland's first non-communist government since World War Two, was named by IPN as collaborator "Nowak" who helped infiltrate a Solidarity weekly. Niezabitowska said she may take her case to international court to prove her innocence.
From http://www.polandembassy.org/News/p3-1.htm
Quote:
List of agents from Wildstein means end of vetting - Belka

Lowicz, Jan. 31: PM Marek Belka says that the duplicating and disseminating by journalist Bronislaw Wildstein of a list of communist-era secret police staffers, informers and would-be informers means an end of vetting. "This is in fact the end of any kind of vetting," Belka said. "This has compromised all approaches to vetting. We can put this chapter behind us. I do not know if this was the aim (of Wildstein's action), but in my opinion the consequences will be exactly such." A computer linked to a database on archival files has been available in the National Remembrance Institute (IPN) since last autumn. All persons using the archives have access to the computer. Wildstein copied 240,000 names from the archival name index. He claims he has made the list available to journalists in order to facilitate their work on communist-era secret police and its victims.

The list is now circulating the internet- but names are being added, deleted, changed-someone even claims to have found Robert Nixon on it, ;) But all jokes aside- there are people breaking down because of this, confessing that they collaborated, people are learning things about their friends that they would rather not know, people find names and assume things...that's the worst I think. The assumptions, the mistrust.

This is just a list of names. It doesn't even give the birth details. John Smith, or Jan Kowalski, is on there many times. But now people are thinking, is this my father, neighbour, uncle? And is he on the list because he collaborated, because he spied, or did he resist the threats? Is he guilty, or is he a victim?

My father told me he is almost certainly on that list- he was approached several times by the communist government. They wanted his support and collaboration. I'm proud (but not surprised) to say he declined and suffered the consequences. But he is on the list. Everyone on that list is now equally guilty and not guilty. It's...crazy.

And you know what...I'm probably on that list too. When I was two months old, the police came to our house and wrote down all our details.
They even asked my mother what party I belonged to. :Q :LMAO:


But all in all this isn't very funny. My dad says he doesn't want to see his files. He is entitled to it, as he was not an agent- but he says he doesn't want to find out which one of the people he trusted spied on him.

*sigh*.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Thu 03 Feb , 2005 9:08 pm
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My sympathies, Rodia. Lists are very bad things. We've gone through eras in the US where such lists were used against people, as you probably know, and I sometimes think that Jews everywhere are on one big list! (That's on a bad day.)

The uttermost danger of such lists is that they are rarely used for the purpose intended. They always get used for more intimate sorts of persecution in the end - to feed ambition, eliminate personal rivals, etc.

Jn

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Rodia
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Posted: Thu 03 Feb , 2005 11:30 pm
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Exactly. I doubt that many of the politicians who actually would have anything to hide will suffer much. ;) They'll find a way out of this.

I feel sorry for all the people who have had their lives turned upside down by suspicion.

The paper today gave a couple of quotes from their internet chat on the subject. This one really got to me: a man was saying he found his father's name, and that he was shattered, that a myth had died for him.

The list doesn't say anything about his father, except give his name. But for this guy, it's the end of the world- he has already believed the worst.

It's just...insane.

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Lidless
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Posted: Thu 03 Feb , 2005 11:44 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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But how many lives are made better because the suspicion is lifted - they are not on the list?

There's a double-edge to this and not as black and white as you might think.

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Areanor
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Posted: Thu 03 Feb , 2005 11:47 pm
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Rodia, that sounds awfully like the thing that happened when the border between East and West Germany opened. It was 15 years ago, but the archive with the spy reports of the East German StaSi is still there and still open for those who want to see who spied on them and what they reported.

Some would not want to have a look for fear what they might discover. Some took a look and said - I knew that XY was spying on me all the time. Some took a look and were absolutely shattered by the fact that someone very close - husband, child, brother - reported things that were supposed to undermine the GDR. Some even made things up just to have something to report.

I always wondered if there would be a file about my family, as we had relatives in the eastern part of Germany whom we sometimes visited and to whom we sent parcels every year. I don't want to find out.

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Rodia
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Posted: Fri 04 Feb , 2005 12:12 am
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TheLidlessEyes wrote:
But how many lives are made better because the suspicion is lifted - they are not on the list?

There's a double-edge to this and not as black and white as you might think.
I don't think it's black and white... I know a lot of good will come of it too- there are people who have been wronged back then and now have their chance to be compensated for it.

I'm just disturbed by it all. It's going to take a long long time to mop up, and while a lot of people will find peace, a lot of people who had peace will lose it.

It's not entirely bad but far from good too.

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Teremia
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 8:21 am
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I have been curious about my Stasi (DDR) file for some years. (I spent a fair amount of time there doing research for my dissertation.) I thought over the ethics of looking at it and decided that in my case it would be fine because I actually wouldn't be at all distressed to find out my friends were reporting on me. Why? Because they were ultimately the vulnerable ones, not me. I had the privilege of going home again. Basically, if they were going to report on anybody in their lives -- I was the most ethical choice!

Haven't gotten so far as to start the bureaucratic ball rolling, but someday I hope to.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 8:43 am
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What were you researching there, Teremia?

Jn

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Teremia
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 5:08 pm
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Cultural policy in the Soviet occupation zone, 1945-1949

How's that for dry? But the stay in East Germany was incredibly interesting -- it was right at the End (1986, 1989) and politically, socially, you-name-it-wise a very strange and fascinating time.

(I should say to Rodia and Areanor, though, that I would feel VERY differently about files kept on me in my own country (US)! )


Edited to say: Speaking of dry, I clearly need a picture! But I'm really behind the curve on that sort of thing. I only just managed to get a sigpic uploaded at TORC, after years of study. And THIS computer [points with scorn] can't handle images at all. And needless to say, I don't own a scanner.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Sun 06 Feb , 2005 5:41 pm
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I find the topic very interesting!

I was visiting the DDR at least once a year from about 1978 to 1989 and once a week in 1981. My in-laws lived in West Berlin and during the one year that we lived in W. Germany I had to cross the DDR to visit them. My husband and I did quite a bit a touring in the environs of Berlin, east and west.

We had the good luck to be friends with the W. German ambassador to E. Germany, and he had many East German friends, of course, most of them with liberal travel priveleges. So I got to be a fly on the wall for a lot of interesting discussions about the differences between East and West. Now I'm sort of inundated with students from the Warsaw Pact countries (and China!) because they all want to study here ... and most of them do not say that the economic situation has improved for the average person. But I suspect that the cultural situation has improved exponentially simply because the state-enforced fear is behind them.

E. Berlin was a grim city in the 1980s ... but I'm not sure that KuDamm isn't an oppression of a different sort, economically speaking.

Jn

p.s. I'm no help at all with pics. Eru loaded mine from a pic Lidless at taken at the Philly M00t

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Teremia
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 4:34 pm
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Jnyusa, that's (as my kids say) way cool!

I did find always that East Berlin etc. seemed much grimmer when one was just passing through than when one was living there. Not discounting the terrible repression and the general sense of always being watched!! But if you were living there, there were always pockets of life to be found -- interesting people, interesting discussions, hopes that the future could be made to be different in a way that was unique to that particular place.... I felt extremely awake and alive in my time there.

Sounds like you hob-nobbed with a way more elevated crowd than I did, but it's possible there was even some overlap around the edges, intellectual circles not usually being too enormous....


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 07 Feb , 2005 6:31 pm
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"intellectual circles not usually being too enormous...."

Yes, I'm sure that's the case! Unfortunately I no longer remember the names of most of the people I met there. My husband and I divorced and I have not returned to Germany since, though both my daughters spent a high-school year there. So it's been about fifteen years ... and I don't have a good head for names. My daughters would probably remember them, though, because they still go back for visits.

One bizarre encounter - proving just how small the world really is - one East German couple that we met at Christmastime every year because they had a daughter close in age to my oldest daughter ... the husband was a screenwriter/director/stage producer type, and he was permitted unlimited travel. East Germany also hosted quite a few foreign students from the 'third world' because their universities were so good. Subsequent to my divorce, I worked for a non-profit organization that sent me to Nicaragua ... not frequently but regularly ... and at one point I was set up to meet some guy running an experimental farm/commune style community out in the campo and it turned out that he was also a film maker and had studied in Berlin with this friend of ours from the Christmas parties. That was like taking a trip to Saturn and finding a sign that said, "George Washington slept here."

It's not odd to meet people in Nicaragua who have studied in East Germany, but it was really an odd feeling to meet someone who had studied with a person I knew from a completely different context.

Jn

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