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Lent? (and stuff)

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Dindraug
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 8:35 am
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laureanna, don't go, not on my part anyway. I was brought into this thread by the origional title, having strage ties to those sorts of practices. I have been told that a raven and a fox watch for me, and I guess a cyote would too.

I came here to give an opinion, and to vent somewhat. I am not a religious man, although I am a religious historian, but I am a very spiritual man. I do have issues with organised religion, and the way it is portrayed. My post here was not about Nero, or Fawks any more that it was about Innocent III and the habit of Christians to burn unbelievers, it was about how Lent is portrayed.

As Ber said, I work in the administative of a major religion, the Anglican Chruch. Being what it is, it attracts a lot of christians and a lot of anglicans to work here. I have to watch what I say in ways that make what we do on TORC appear open. I cannot, as an example, mention baptists. Why, because my boss is a baptist and her best friend who temps here is a baptist minister. To do so would be political suicide.

I struggle with the restrictions, which is made worse because at certain times of the year there is a bombardment of internal e-mails. Currently, it is lent. We have mails through in a similar maner to those posters you get outside churches. 'What are YOU giving up for Lent?'. The message is quite pointed, as are the looks when I say 'nothing' if asked.

I am quite new in the organisation, and still not used to it. There will be other times like this where I just want to scream if another person asks me which church I go to. I would be tempted to say 'Stonehenge' or similar, but they would not get it. Not my intention to upset religious people.

Having said that, I would defend my right to the bitter end to have an opinion. And to discuss it.

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Berhael
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 8:45 am
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Din, laureanna has left the thread because Lent has started, I'm sure. :)
It's Ash Wednesday in Europe - and Chinese New Year.
Have a good day, folks, whatever your ideas and faith. :)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 3:21 pm
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Yes, she's cutting back on posting for Lent, Din, not because of anything you said.

Happy New Year to all those who celebrate Tet, and tomorrow is Moslem New Year. I love mid-winter festivals.

Jn

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 4:41 pm
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Imbolc! The light returns! Light a candle, a lantern, a bonfire!

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Berhael
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 4:56 pm
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I saw the first daffodil today. :D

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 6:43 pm
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You people who live where the Mediterranean winds blow! - how unfair to be looking at daffodils! :bawl:

Ax - time to count the bales of hay left in the barn. ;)

And if you follow Chinese tradition, time to caulk your windows.

Jn

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Berhael
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 6:49 pm
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Mediterranean winds in the English Midlands :Q

Unless that is when the local supermarket is baking "French" baguettes... ;)

I also have a few snowdrops and crocuses in my garden. :D My first snowdrops! I'm so proud... :)

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Leoba
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
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The bluebells are starting to come up in our garden, as well as the daffs. The bluebells are especially precious to me though. They came originally from the woods at the bottom of the garden at my childhood home, where the ground was always covered in them in Spring. My Dad transplanted some into the garden itself and then I transplanted a few to my flat a year or so ago. I think the gardeners killed most - the barbarians - but two bulbs are still surviving and they bloomed for the first time last year. I hope I can take them with me when I move on again!

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 7:11 pm
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Ber, I thought you still lived in Spain! I've got the geography of nearly everyone all switched around, lol!

The Midlands are warmer that the East Coast US even though they're at a higher latitude. Something to do with air and ocean currents. We're waiting now for 'second winter' and won't see anything nice until April. :(

Leoba - I'll have to go look in the address thread to see where you live. All these people with flowers - pf! - I'm going to move.

Jn

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Rodia
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 8:19 pm
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Bluebells?
Crocuses?
Daffodils?

The only blooms over here are the red of our noses in the frost.

Nine degrees below zero.

I want to hibernate.

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Lidless
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 8:41 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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So long as we don't get an Orlando Bloom here in Florida, I shall be content.

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Sunsilver
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 9:29 pm
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Rodia wrote:
Bluebells?
Crocuses?
Daffodils?

The only blooms over here are the red of our noses in the frost.

Nine degrees below zero.

I want to hibernate.
Ro, I notice your weather in Poland seems to be quite similar to ours her in the Toronto area. It's snowy and cold here today. I nearly had an accident coming home, when I lost control of my car on a downhill slope with a slight curve. Wound up on the boulevard with my bumper buried in a snowbank! :roll:


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Berhael
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 10:47 pm
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Yikes Sunsilver! :shock: I won't ask if you're ok... if a nurse is posting online, then she must be ok. ;)

Jny, yes, England is warmer thanks to the Gulf Stream; it has a very mild climate. Even Madrid (by virtue of being on top of a 1,200ft-high plateau) is colder in the winter!

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"The most terrifying day of your life is the day the first one is born [...] Your life, as you know it... is gone. Never to return. But they learn how to walk, and they learn how to talk... and you want to be with them. And they turn out to be the most delightful people you will ever meet in your life."


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truehobbit
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 10:54 pm
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Sorry for my long absence here - I'd seen the first two posts after mine had completely ignored the issue I was trying to raise, so I thought there weren't going to be any comments.

Din, you can say that you hate the Christian messages that go round in your office as long as you like, you can argue for your opinions on why no one should be a Christian or whatever for pages, if you want to. You can not, I think, go into a thread where people are trying to talk about what they do for lent and why, and say that Christians are all worthless annoyances who should be burned one and all! Because that is what you said in your 'joke'. It's a personal insult to someone who is a Christian, and as such it would be rude even if the thread were about criticising Christianity.

So, I said what I did because I meant it - I do express myself rather bluntly (see my sig ;) ) - but I don't see how I can have been insulting you, when I only pointed out that your joke was hurtful, tasteless and quite out of place!

And lidless, this does not have to do with "chilling" - Din even made the joke twice and I didn't say anything the first time, but on repeating it I just had enough. I know you make jokes about everything, too, and sometimes they go beyond acceptable, too - at least they used to in your heyday on TORC ;) - trust me, I'll let you know when they do again! :devil: (Because there are differences - a joke about Germany can be funny or insulting - it depends on what it says, not just being about Germany or not, for example. With some jokes you just can laugh because they are so absurd it's evident the speaker is ridiculing his own persona, not the thing he talks about - you cited Swift's humour - as soon as it seems the person means it, it stops being funny! Not sure if I can explain it in so short a space, but I want to finish this post.)

Eru, yes, actually you are right both ways! :oops:
It was meant as a good thing, but yes, the first couple of times you spoke up against dissing of the US, I thought "what's Eru's problem?" - probably just like Din did when I protested. When you just can't understand that someone feels strongly about something because you don't care at all about the thing in question, seeing them stand up for it looks rather humourless at first. So I can understand lidless's and other people's reactions here.

But after a while I began to think that you are right - if it means something to you, you should speak up. And people's reactions to your protests have invariably been positive - everybody understands, it seems, that dissing a nationality is personally hurtful to someone who identifies with that nationality. So, I should have thought it can't be so very surprising to people that dissing a faith is personally hurtful to someone identifying with that faith.

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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 4:23 am
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truehobbit wrote:
But after a while I began to think that you are right - if it means something to you, you should speak up. And people's reactions to your protests have invariably been positive - everybody understands, it seems, that dissing a nationality is personally hurtful to someone who identifies with that nationality. So, I should have thought it can't be so very surprising to people that dissing a faith is personally hurtful to someone identifying with that faith.
I feel like we understand each other better now and that's truly a refreshing feeling. I thank you for writing this, because it made me feel better. :hug:


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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 8:50 am
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Eruname wrote:
truehobbit wrote:
But after a while I began to think that you are right - if it means something to you, you should speak up. And people's reactions to your protests have invariably been positive - everybody understands, it seems, that dissing a nationality is personally hurtful to someone who identifies with that nationality. So, I should have thought it can't be so very surprising to people that dissing a faith is personally hurtful to someone identifying with that faith.
I feel like we understand each other better now and that's truly a refreshing feeling. I thank you for writing this, because it made me feel better. :hug:
Made me feel really good too.

Truehobbit, calm down, take a deep breath and think before typeing. And look at what I wrote, and maybe just for once try to look at life from somebody elses perspective.

You did not appreciate my comment, ok. Much of the what you spout I do not agree with and some of your attitudes offend me.

But coming back like that is rude, and offensive, and petty. Personally, I would noted that teh thread had moved on and in respect of others in here I would have sent an e-mail, or PM rather than making a statement.

I understand that you did not appriciate an offhand comment, which it was. Not sure why, but you do have a habbit of taking offense where none is intended.

I was however making a point in a thread about what you are doing for Lent by saying I was not doing anything and constant reference to it is really anoying to me.



And Eru, well done. That helped enormously.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 5:30 pm
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Ok, Din, I'm looking at things calmly, because otherwise I'd reply with the sarcasm I feel like using to reply to what you just said.

Din, I think you still don't understand what exactly you said that was so hurtful.

Maybe I should quote, to make it clearer:
Quote:
I am not saying Nero was right, but sometimes I do wonder if he was wrong ;)
...
LOL, yes, that and his taste in garden decorations. A fine tradition userped by the Anglican communion to celebrate November 5th :LMAO:
...
:roll: Religious folks :D
It was not your comments on feeling persecuted by your colleagues, it was not your saying you don't do anything for lent, it was not even just saying that talking about keeping lent annoyed you - as long as you said it was your colleagues who annoyed you, that's ok, too.

You did sound rather absolute in your condemnation, though, and I think that laureanna took your hatred for people talking about keeping lent to include the people posting in this thread.

For me (I don't presume to speak for others, although Ro said she also did a "double turn") what was hurtful, was a very deliberate and cruel joke on your part, which you posted twice, and which made it clear you think the world would be the better if Christians could be got rid of.

So, I think it's you who is being unfeeling. Not just by not realising how cruel your joke was. It's even more because you think "the thread had moved on", which means you haven't even noticed that with your repeated crass statements you made laureanna feel so bad about her keeping lent that she felt she had to justify herself to you, so you wouldn't despise her along with all the other people who keep lent that you hate so much.
If you had put yourself in other people's position at any time, rather than focusing on your own trouble with Christians, you'd have noticed and taken back what you said.

Ro and laureanna tried to point it out to you gently that maybe you were going a bit too far, they both agreed with you about being intrusive, Ro tried to turn your "joke" into something less hurtful, laureanna apologized, but all this was of no avail, you went on with it, so I thought I'd have to speak a bit more clearly and unmistakably.

I suppose I could have e-mailed you rather than commenting in the thread, I understand that it is hurtful to be criticised in public. But it's difficult for me to react that subtly to an offense when it had taken place in public, too - the urge is simply to respond in the place where you are confronted with the problem.
I didn't mean to hurt you with my criticism, but I did mean to stop your taunts, and seeing they were hurtful not only to me, but to others as well, I don't think that's at all petty.

And if you have a problem with any of my opinions, feel free to contradict me, whenever you read them!

I'm a Christian by choice and although I normally want to be liked by everybody, I don't care a fig what other people think of me on account of that! No one should have to feel embarrassed for what they believe in, and for other people to try and make them feel embarrassed, and to point out that they look down on them for the beliefs they hold - well, in plain English, that sucks!

Which reminds me:
lidless wrote:
To be blunt, IMHO religion is a social and mental trick of the mind passed down through the generations (see The Retirement Plan) - a controller and comforter.

That so many people feel the need for such 'mental tricks' such as Lent to give up something, rather than having the strength of will to do it under our own steam, I find disappointing.
I think you have a rather limited view of religion, lidless, and you don't quite understand the concept of lent.
Lent is not about someone wanting to cut back on the alcohol (for example) and not being able to without an outward, artificial aid to make up for a lack of willpower - it's about taking a break from ordinary, daily life and trying to focus on something else. It's realising that all too easily the trifling desires and customs of everyday life take over and dominate all our thinking. And if you feel that this is happening - that something meaningless is dominating your life - it might be a good idea to let that be and try to focus on something else for a change.
Whether you take lent as a setting for that - if you are a Christian the religious context of lent makes it a meaningful period of the year - or any other part of the year that has some meaning to you personally - it's always useful, I think, to take a time out, have a look at your life, and think about whether you are still on a track that makes sense to you.

It's a practice which, as far as I know, all cultures that have developed any kind of spirituality include in their traditions. Western consumerist society is the only one that has banned any idea of abstention and indeed spirituality as such, for the simple reason that obviously it's not good for business. Indeed, the comeback of spirituality in recent times, IMO, is connected to business realising that you can make money with spirituality, too. That so many people are happy to go along with that uncritically is something I find disappointing.

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Berhael
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Posted: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 5:48 pm
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truehobbit wrote:
Lent is not about someone wanting to cut back on the alcohol (for example) and not being able to without an outward, artificial aid to make up for a lack of willpower - it's about taking a break from ordinary, daily life and trying to focus on something else. It's realising that all too easily the trifling desires and customs of everyday life take over and dominate all our thinking. And if you feel that this is happening - that something meaningless is dominating your life - it might be a good idea to let that be and try to focus on something else for a change.
That might be what the idea of Lent is about, and what it is for true Christians. But for many people, who aren't religious in a regular manner, it has become just another go at a New Year Resolution, with added peer pressure ("So what are YOU giving up for Lent?").

Just like Christmas isn't simply a time for joy and reflection anymore, as it should be for Christians. And the pagan origins of the festivals - Christmas, Easter - sometimes resurface, reinforced by modern consumerist ideas.

Since I'm agnostic and share Lidless's ideas on organised religion, but try to be tolerant and don't want to get into an argument, I think I'll leave it at that.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:30 pm
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Berhael wrote:

That might be what the idea of Lent is about, and what it is for true Christians. But for many people, who aren't religious in a regular manner, it has become just another go at a New Year Resolution, with added peer pressure ("So what are YOU giving up for Lent?").

Just like Christmas isn't simply a time for joy and reflection anymore, as it should be for Christians. And the pagan origins of the festivals - Christmas, Easter - sometimes resurface, reinforced by modern consumerist ideas.

Since I'm agnostic and share Lidless's ideas on organised religion, but try to be tolerant and don't want to get into an argument, I think I'll leave it at that.
I hope it's not a strain on your tolerance to discuss this! :Q

Partly I can understand that such questions can get on your nerves - although, if people don't know you don't keep lent, for example, and you are living in a society where giving up things is a widespread custom, it's an innocent enough question, I think.

It's like being asked: "And what are you dressing up as on Carnival? (Or if you're American: on Halloween".
I don't dress up as anything, I don't celebrate Carnival, and with that I'm a very odd exception in my city! So, you do get asked that question pretty regularly - or at least in the form: "And what are you doing for the Carnival" - but I've never felt annoyed by that. I don't enjoy Carnival, but I'm not hostile towards it either, and I think that's why don't feel attacked when someone asks me that, fully expecting that everybody does something for the Carnival.

Maybe there's a difference in society - I've never heard anyone say "And what are YOU giving up for Lent?" - it's certainly not a question of peer-pressure over here when it comes to Lent, so I suppose I can't really relate to that.

But I do think that it takes a certain hostility against the thing in question on your part to start with to be upset by such questions in the first place.

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Lidless
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Posted: Sun 13 Feb , 2005 8:41 pm
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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http://heritage.stsci.edu/2000/06/big.html

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