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Hate the sin. Love the sinner. A question of responsibility

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Wolfgangbos
Post subject: Hate the sin. Love the sinner. A question of responsibility
Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 6:52 pm
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I'm looking for some advice. My eleven year old half sister seems to have developed a prejudice against gay people. My guess is that she's learned it from my father and from the kids in her school. My father is a very conservative Christian whose views on gay people can be summed up more or less as follows:

"Engaging in homosexual relations is a sin, but we're supposed to love all people regardless of their sins. It's not my place to pass judgement on someone with regards to the ultimate destination of their soul, but neither do I want to see homosexuality glorified as I believe it is a sin."

This is a position I see taken by many Christians these days, and sounds quite progressive compared to the majority of attitudes from even 10 years ago (in my experience, at least). But the part about "glorifying" homosexuality is the kicker, as in my experience it tends to translate to "It's ok to be gay, as long as you're not being gay in public."

Last night my sister was talking about how she was disgusted by seeing two effeminate men shopping together at a local grocery store. They weren't kissing each other or even flirting. They were just shopping together and talking to each other. That it bothers my sister so much to even see presumably gay men shopping seems to indicate that she's taking the implications of my father's views seriously.

And it's not just my father's influence. At school she and her friends have apparently come up with a word to describe gay people. The word is "swingholes." Perhaps it's an amalgum of "swingers" and "assholes." I'm not sure. Regardless, she appears to be quite inundated in a culture that is deeply prejudiced against gay people.

She's too young to really have formed these conclusions through critical thinking. She's just absorbing the biases of everything she's ever known. And here I am sitting in the car with her last night listening to her talk about her views. Obviously I disagree. I've known quite a few gay and bisexual people throughout my life. With none of them have I felt that their having those preferences was a moral issue in and of itself. Whatever moral flaws or strengths they have or had were in no way related to or determined by their sexuality. Their sexuality, with regards to moral matters, is a non-issue in my mind.

But should I say anything to my sister to that effect? What responsibility do I have, as her half brother, to give her the opportunity to see how I view the world? And what responsibility do I have to speak with my father on this matter? He and I are not close, and have not been close for 13 years. And he is the gatekeeper with regards to me seeing and spending time with my sister.

It is important to me that she not hold prejudices that are insulting and hurtful to people I care about. My future father-in-law and uncle-in-law are both gay. My fiance is bisexual. The visceral negative reaction of disgust that my sister experiences when seeing gay people is difficult enough for my fiance to watch as it is. And it can potentially get much worse with time.

Certainly when my sister is older and capable of making her own decisions I'll have no qualms about giving her a chance to see where I disagree with our father. But at 11 years old she's just not ready to do that kind of critical evaluation. She's barely getting to the point where she's beginning to figure out how to make decisions, let alone major evaluations of moral judgements. Still, the biases and prejudices she forms now may adversely affect her and others down the road. I'm not her parent, certainly, but I do feel that I am responsible for passing along what wisdom I have learned. How far must that responsibility extend?

It occurs to me that this may be a situation that will have to be approached with the greatest of care.


Edited for grammar and clarity

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vison
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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 7:00 pm
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Holy cats, yes.

Well, I don't think it would be beyond proper if you were to say something like, "I don't share those ideas. Would you like to hear what I think?" You might ask her WHY she thinks as she does. Don't forget, you were brought up by the same father and you don't share his beliefs now, so it is perfectly possible and probably likely that when she's a bit older she will learn to think differently.

However, I think it is in part just the "culture" of that age group. Puberty is kicking in, big time, and sexuality is fraught with confusion and emotion. I hear the same stuff from my grandsons now and again, sadly enough, and they aren't being taught anything like it at home: it's a kid thing, and I firmly believe that they can be taught better. I speak out clearly each time I hear them make such remarks, or if they parrot some of the racist crap that is common. And IF I can get them to sit still for a proper conversation on the subject, it's obvious to me that they are, in fact, absorbing what we teach them at home: but they don't speak out in their peer groups, it's just NOT something a kid that age will do.

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Meril36
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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 7:36 pm
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Yes. Don't underestimate her just because she's only eleven. I would use the Socratic method when discussing it. That way she'll arrive at the answers herself.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 7:58 pm
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You have to realize that she'll reach her own conclusions no matter what you or your father says.

I would imagine most of what she's deciding or believing is more along the lines of trying to fit in with her peers, rather than actual beliefs. In talking about it in front of you, or with you... she may be testing the boundaries of having those feelings or beliefs with her family.

In any case, it's important to be yourself, and let her understand who you are for the simple reason it is you :). It would also be beneficial for her to see that you might disagree with her a great deal, but you aren't going to try and force her to believe as you do. It takes understanding that kind of thing for someone so young to be able to stand up to their peers and believe something different, without fear of being rejected...

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Axordil
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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 8:09 pm
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Quote:
But at 11 years old she's just not ready to do that kind of critical evaluation.
Gotta start sometime.

You and your fiance have no duty to lie to cover for your dad. I'm not sure I would overtly broach the subject myself, but I know I was aware of various doctrinal and moral disagreements in my family from a young age (mostly because of the arguments every @#$@#$ Christmas).

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Jonny
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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 8:33 pm
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Ya, I'd say step in.

It may be partly a result of her age group, but if a child isn't shown another route of belief, then they could be cementing something about themselves that is very difficult to change down the line.

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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 8:45 pm
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Yeah, I'd be inclined to throw in a sarcastic "How very enlightened of you" comment occasionally to see if she picks up on it.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 9:02 pm
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Age 11 means she would be in 5th grade, correct? I think she can stand some honesty and sincerity on your part. Put it this way, if someone else's child said those types of things to me as part of a discussion we were having, I would state how I felt, although maybe as diplomatically as I could.

Religious beliefs or no, part of a being a functioning successful and well rounded individual in modern society requires that there are going to be a LOT of people out there that maybe you do not agree with, but then, they may not agree with you either. It does not make any party "right" and the others "wrong." She needs to learn that concept, and maybe the one about the Golden Rule, and the "wearing another person's shoes" bit, and especially the one about being the first to cast stones...
:)

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elfshadow
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Posted: Thu 19 Apr , 2007 10:02 pm
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I agree with all of the above comments. She is young, but 11-year-olds are, I think, far more intellectually capable than we give them credit for. It's easy to forget once we grow older, but really once you're past the age of seven or so you are able to reason and consider different viewpoints--even if those skills are not fully developed. I can see absolutely no harm that can come from simply explaining to her that there are different views in the world. It's probably a bad idea to tell her anything like, "Your father is wrong," but saying, "Here's what a lot of people think" is going to be beneficial to her in the long run. She probably won't change her beliefs just because you explained things to her from your point of view, but at the very least she will be made aware that hers is not the only opinion. Best of luck! :)


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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Fri 20 Apr , 2007 6:14 am
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A few comments:

1. At her age, I said everything she is saying about gay people and worse. Much, much worse (boy do I wish "swingholes" was as bad I had gotten.) And now I'm, um, one of those people. So it's an open question where she will end up, and why she's expressing the views she is, when she is.

2. I was quite out of the closet about my homophobia...and what happened is, I was called on it by people from time to time. People who told me that I was being bigoted and hateful...people who responded to my "I don't even know any gay people" by letting me know that some of our mutual friends were openly gay and asking whether I was willing to tell them how I felt...people who showed me there was a different point of view. (By the way, one of those people was my own younger sister.) I'm actually in the middle of thanking some of those people for having provided me that point of view...which later became invaluable to me as I grappled with my own sexuality. I think it's really, really good even for diehard homophobes just to hear other points of view - not angrily or vehemently expressed, but just put out there. Even if it doesn't sway them at the time...there could come a time in the future when your words come back to them.

3. As her older sibling, you do have an obligation (in my view as an older sis) to let her know when her behavior is inappropriate. "Visceral expressions of disgust" when seeing members from ANY demographic are inappropriate, and I think it is appropriate for you to discourage that behavior under any circumstances, and outright prohibit it when she is with you or your fiance.

4. I think it is more important for you to work with your sister on this issue than to discuss things with your father.


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Wilma
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Posted: Fri 20 Apr , 2007 6:21 am
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Count me in as someone who thinks you should let your viewpoints be known. I agree with everyone here. I think she is old enough to start to hear differeing viewpoints. Also hearing about it now, from you may equip her to deal with gay or bi people in a positive manner as she gets older.

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Fri 20 Apr , 2007 8:59 pm
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Thanks all for your comments. I think I know what I'm going to do. I'll post here as to how it goes.

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Jude
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Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 7:38 pm
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Wolfgangbos wrote:
I think I know what I'm going to do. I'll post here as to how it goes.
Slow year? :poke:

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ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject: Re: Hate the sin. Love the sinner. A question of responsibility
Posted: Mon 01 Dec , 2008 8:51 pm
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I'm not going to say much more than everyone else but there is no greater service to give to a child's education than to let them know that there are other valid opinions out there. That there is no one right way. That there is diversity in the world.
You are wary of so offending your father's religious views that you are cautious about what you say. That is fair enough if you set out to change her mind. Nevertheless it is completely honourable and defensible to explain your own thinking and of other adults thinking without demanding or persuading her to agree with you. It's enough that she knows there's another window on life.

A lot of it is the age-group I'm sure but you are wise to pick up on it.

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Wolfgangbos
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Posted: Tue 09 Dec , 2008 7:34 pm
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Jude wrote:
Wolfgangbos wrote:
I think I know what I'm going to do. I'll post here as to how it goes.
Slow year? :poke:
More like an extremely busy one. I'm now taking nearly full time school and full time work, involving myself in a local freethought advocacy group, and am a very proud uncle to an almost one year old nephew.

As for my sister, I did indeed decide to be very open about my position regarding homosexuality. Interestingly enough, my sister seems to have developed something of a fascination with it. A few months back she showed me a youtube video of Katie Price's "I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It." She and her new sisters (my father has since remarried yet again) couldn't stop watching it, and even though they were making somewhat disparaging remarks I could tell there was a definite interest there. I'm not sure what that means for my sister, but it should be interesting to see how her position on these matters changes over the next few years.

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TheMary
Post subject: Re: Hate the sin. Love the sinner. A question of responsibility
Posted: Wed 10 Dec , 2008 5:30 am
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When I was her age (or a little older) I had the same attitude (without using nasty words) about gays, it was okay as long as they kept it to themselves and God blah blah blah, and that was fine with me until I actually had a gay friend.

Long point short, eventually she'll have a friend that's gay and hopefully that will change her point of view. It sounds like her mind is opening already :). For me it really boiled down to "am I willing to look my friend in the face and tell him/her that she can't have the same rights as I do because of his sexual orientation"...uh not so much.

PS. HI WOLFIE!!!!!!! :hug:

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