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Iraq and the depersonalization of soldiers

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Wilma
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Posted: Mon 30 Apr , 2007 11:23 pm
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Well I am sort of surprised Ara, you really think other countries just sit there and do nothing?

Until Afghanistan, the Canadian military has been doing peacekeeping all over the world. Not to mention food aid. I am usually not one for numbers and that sort of thing, but I am sure Ara if you look up stats on other countries you will find they do a lot too.

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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 2:06 am
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Ara-anna wrote:
vison wrote:
A version of noblesse oblige is appropriate here:
Why? Honest question, why?

And if you don't want the US to be the 'worlds policmen' then do it yourselves. Pony up the troops to keep the peace in the entire world.
Agree that I don’t like the hypocrisy, but the simple problem is that very few countries have the wealth and power to project military force across the globe. In fact, on its own, I’d say that the U.S. is the only single country that can. The only other power which could help out Dafur would be the EU. I think it should step up and help, but if it doesn’t you can’t really point the finger at Canada or some other mid-level power.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 2:44 am
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It's true, our enlightened peaceful Canadian neighbors have been involved in many more wars than we have. Before they finally disentangled their government from the British government, they got involved in every little war the British did.

Our peaceful enlightened neighbor has been in more wars than we have.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 9:08 am
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Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
It's true, our enlightened peaceful Canadian neighbors have been involved in many more wars than we have. Before they finally disentangled their government from the British government, they got involved in every little war the British did.

Our peaceful enlightened neighbor has been in more wars than we have.
Never fought a war against themselves though have they?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 1:49 pm
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In how many countries does Canada have a military presence right now?

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elfshadow
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 2:37 pm
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Dindraug wrote:
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:
It's true, our enlightened peaceful Canadian neighbors have been involved in many more wars than we have. Before they finally disentangled their government from the British government, they got involved in every little war the British did.

Our peaceful enlightened neighbor has been in more wars than we have.
Never fought a war against themselves though have they?
Don't see what that has to do with anything. :scratch: Our Civil War eventually made the US stronger as a nation, not weaker.


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yovargas
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 2:39 pm
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Ugh. Can we drop this "my country is better than yours" line of bickering? It is pointless and besides any point there might be around here.


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Wilma
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 2:57 pm
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I checked Wikipedia and the Canadian military is involved in 37 operations currently. Now unfortunately wikipedia does give details about the operations.
Linky

*Off to google some more*

OK I found some places

Florida and Bahrain
Haiti
Bosnia Herzogovina
Golan Heights
Sinai
Sierra Leone
Demorcratic Republic of Congo
Sudan (2 operations)
Cyprus
Jeruselem (2 operations)
Iraq
Afghanistan (3 operations)

I got the info from this poster here

EDIT:
Do'h I missed the last 2 posts sorry.
I don't think it's about one country being better then the other. I think it seems Americans feellike they are doing all the work and everyone just sits back and criticizes as if they do nothing wrong. I never said my country did nothing wrong (murder in Somalia hello), but we also just don't do nothing. Other countries are not perfect either I heard France and other European countries were involved in whipping up the frenzy in Rwanda and well most nations of the world (including Canadians) did turn their back on that genocide (I guess it just wasn't in the interests of any of the more developed nations :( ) But I do think when any country starts to claim to "help" other countries for altruistic reasons it's usually not true. (Sorry but that is just the way I look at it.)

I do think though that US gets lot of pressure from other countries since well at least the media makes the US look like the paragon of human principles etc... (Like for example I really hate when the US media says that their president is the leader of the free world. Uh hello why didn't I get a vot?) When the world see the US going around saying things like that, they expect the US to back it up. (Keep in mind other countries say things like that but I usually don't fall for it.)

Last edited by Wilma on Tue 01 May , 2007 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 6:05 pm
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UK soldiers are fighting ferociously in Southern Afghanistan at the moment against the Taliban. Dead soldiers come back constantly. We don't even know yet if we are winning. The British armed forces did have to retrain the Afghan artillery to take pains to avoid civilians. They had acquired bad habits from their previous tutors.

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yovargas
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 6:23 pm
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Quote:
I think it seems Americans feellike they are doing all the work and everyone just sits back and criticizes as if they do nothing wrong.
I can't recall hearing that position before Ara made those posts.


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Jude
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 6:30 pm
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I have.

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 6:36 pm
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"US look like the paragon of human principles etc..."

Speaking as a patriotic but realistic American, I feel that our country at its best is emblematic of some of the finest aspects of human nature, but at its worst exemplifies some of the least commendable aspects of human nature. The reality is that we have a wealth of resources and of power on a scale that most (and in some cases, all) other nations do not. So perhaps when we succeed in doing good, it is expected ("to whom much is given . . ."), but when we fail, there is the potential that we will fail spectacularly and that citizens of other nations will feel themselves entitled to comment on it.

It is perhaps a sign of both our prominence and egotism that we often do not even know enough to rebut their claims with references to their own failures, nor enough to respect them for their successes. Both are all too often not on the same scale as ours - both because of our relatively large physical size, and our disproportionate resources. So, the dialogue becomes excessively about us and our (real or perceived) transgressions.

I admit not to understanding the intense passion of some Americans when it comes to defending our country against the criticisms of others. Where we have done well, I feel we should be secure in our actions; where we have failed, others are as entitled to comment on it as we are.


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Wilma
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 6:37 pm
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I kind of thought Hal had the same sort of feelings. But I can imagine many Americans feel that way just from the vibes I get from the media.

But yeah, Canada constantly gets casualties from Afghanistan too. Also, Canada has a severely underfunded military. That is why we can't go to more countries to help and don't really have much of a say in anything. After WW II Canada had the 3rd largest military in the world. But basically since the 1960's The government has been scaling down military funding. ( Personally don't agree with that.) Now our poor troops usually do not have the best protection possible (retrofitted subs that have been mothballed for decades, (resulted in at least one death) 30 year old tanks, green camuflaugues uniforms instead of sand coloured uniforms etc...)

EDIT I missed the last 2 posts sorry.

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 7:37 pm
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So, have we settled the who has been in more wars pissing contest? Canada wins. I agree with yova, move on.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 7:56 pm
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Ok totally off topic...twice no doubt.

How many troops did the Russians loose in their war with Afganistan?


http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/ ... asudan.htm I wonder if this could be the reason the US Admin is a bit hesitant to get troops involved in Sudan. I can easily see this become the beginning of WWIV.

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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 01 May , 2007 8:04 pm
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ToshoftheWuffingas
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Quote:
So, have we settled the who has been in more wars pissing contest? Canada wins

That honour must fall to us.
Quote:
green camuflaugues uniforms instead of sand coloured uniforms etc...)
The son of a friend of mine is an army reservist. While getting his training before going to Afghanistan he asked his dad to get him some camouflage uniform. You'll want desert camouflage, his dad said. Oh no, get me jungle camouflage. The Brits don't want to be mistaken for other nationalities.

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vison
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Posted: Wed 02 May , 2007 6:07 am
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The USA ranks nearly last in % of GNP devoted to foreign aid. The Netherlands ranks first.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Wed 02 May , 2007 9:32 am
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Ara-anna wrote:
Ok totally off topic...twice no doubt.

How many troops did the Russians loose in their war with Afganistan?
Many.

The diffrance is, the SOVIETS got SOVIET troops killed in droves, not anybodyelses for their wars.

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I can easily see this become the beginning of WWIV.
Errr, I think we will need to have had WWIII first, but I guess we have missed that unless sombody had decalred it fought and won whilst the rest of the world were looking the other way.

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eborr
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Posted: Wed 02 May , 2007 12:22 pm
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I work on a daily basis with military authorities from France and Southern Europe through to Africa, which may or may not give me a more enlightened view on these topics.

There are a number of issues to address in regard to the various topics raised.

1. US troops do have a higher level on indoctrination than most of the other NATO forces with whom I am in contact, they are less discriminating in terms of how they execute missions, to my mind less well trained, the consequence is that man for man they have lower levels of morale, and are less effective. They have excellent supply chains and usually good logistics.

2. The majority of US troops are firmly commited to the notion of being the armed forces of a democratic country, in other words the role of the armed forces is subject to the will of the body politic, which is really the only way it can be

A summary of these two points would read, that they are doing what they are supposed too, just by and large they are not very good at it.

3. We have the notion of the "just war" this is defined in the Geneva Convention (I believe) and certainly in the annals of the UN, there are several reasons why you cannot consider that the war against Iraq was a just war. This is the greatest indictment against GW Bush and T Blair, personally I hope they are both called to account before the appropriate legal authorities for their actions.

4. The losses sustained by the US troops and the troops of other nations and the civilians are the cause of great sadness, at least in the old days the leaders served in front of their own troops.

5. Just a last word on Freedom, what does this mean, Osama might argue, that it would be the Freedom for his country not to be polluted by western influence, for the IRA it was the freedom of the Catholic minority not to live in a predjudicial community, for the Sudanese they might argue it was the freedom to live in a wholly Islamic country, for the UK it's the Freedom of the very wealthy to have residense in our country where they are able to takee advantage of our society without paying any taxes, for the US it's the freedom to elect an idiot President. For the establsihment in all these places it's the freedom to self perpetutate their wealth,influence and power. I will sacrfice these freedoms for more equality, social justice and fairness.


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