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Feminism and its implications

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halplm
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 1:44 am
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Last edited by halplm on Wed 13 Jun , 2007 5:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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tolkienpurist
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In order to facilitate the discussion of white privilege, because I AM talking about "white privilege" and "male privilege," not only "class privilege," with trepidation, I am going to take the liberty of posting the "white privilege checklist" here. I am first going to place a big disclaimer at the top of this post: I do not agree with or endorse every statement on this checklist. (Someone is not going to read this disclaimer, and is going to accuse me of agreeing with this checklist in its entirety.) I am submitting it here as food for thought - nothing more or less.

A second disclaimer: This is food for thought, not intended to be a general description of the individual social reality of each white person who reads this. If you are white, read one thing on this list, and conclude it doesn't apply to your life, then consider whether it might apply broadly to the lives of other white people you know (or whether the converse might apply to the lives of some of the racial minorities that you know). If you conclude that a given statement is absurd and completely detached from the reality of most American white people (or that the converse is completely detached from the reality of most American minorities), then by all means feel free to reject it as absurd. One final time: I am posting this to facilitate discussion, not because I personally agree with every statement made. I flat-out disagree with several of the statements on this list, and I may identify those statements in a subsequent post.
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1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.


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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 2:03 am
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At the risk of posting too much at once, I am also going to quote from the "Male Privilege Checklist." I am going to do something different here - I am only going to quote the numbers on the list that I agree with (you can easily find the full list by Googling "male privilege checklist.") This is in order to facilitate the discussion of male-specific privilege (as opposed to race or class based privilege).

Again, however, one disclaimer applies: This is not intended to be a description of the individual social reality of each male reading this post. If you are male, read one thing on this list, and conclude it doesn't apply to your life, then consider whether it might apply broadly to the lives of other men you know (or whether the converse might apply to the lives of some of the women that you know). If you conclude that a given statement is absurd and completely detached from the reality of most American men (or that the converse is completely detached from the reality of most American women), then by all means feel free to reject it as absurd.

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won't think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it's not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.

5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision.

25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn't send any particular message to the world.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.

27. If I buy a new car, chances are I'll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called "crime" and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called "domestic violence" or "acquaintance rape," and is seen as a special interest issue.)

31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. "All men are created equal…," mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if i don't change my name.

34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as being male.

36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

37. If I have a wife or girlfriend, chances are we'll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she'll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.

41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.

42. If I am heterosexual, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

43. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.


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yovargas
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 2:14 am
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Some of those are fair points (particularly on the male checklist) but a lot of those aren't about, as I said, the advantages of being male/white but about the disadvantage of being something else. It's a subtle difference, maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't.

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If anyone else calls me a racist you won't have to deal with me any more
I'm sorry, hal, but what else am I to call such broadly disparaging statements about an entire race?



(A very minor tangential point:
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29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
We talked about this briefly in the Manwe thread. When a guy behaves like this, he's called an asshole. The term 'asshole' doesn't seem to be used for woman, therefore 'bitch' seems to be the equivalent. Yes, bitch does have sexist undertones but it can be used without them. Or we can start calling these types of women 'assholes', if you prefer. )


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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 2:29 am
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yov – apart from transgender issues (which no one in this thread is arguing), the only two gender possibilities are “man” and “woman”. Thus, the “advantages of being male” versus the “disadvantages of being [female - the only ‘something else’]” are really six of one versus half a dozen of the other. With respect to race, it’s of course more complicated because there are more than two races. To the extent it is possible to lump all non-white races into the “something else,” then again, we have the six of one vs. half-dozen of another issue: the advantages of being white versus the disadvantages of being non-white are two sides of the same coin. (Frankly, the race issue is more complex in my view, but not necessarily because of the distinction you’re trying to draw.)


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yovargas
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 2:39 am
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I dunno, it just strikes me as odd to say having something bad NOT happen to you is an advantage...it's like...there's a difference between getting something good, something bad, and getting nothing...most of those seem to fall into the getting nothing category...which only looks like an advantage because someone else is getting something bad...


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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 2:54 am
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yovargas wrote:
I dunno, it just strikes me as odd to say having something bad NOT happen to you is an advantage...it's like...there's a difference between getting something good, something bad, and getting nothing...most of those seem to fall into the getting nothing category...which only looks like an advantage because someone else is getting something bad...
When something bad does NOT happen to you because you are A, and simultaneously, something bad happens to others because they are not-A, I'm going to go out on a limb and saying that being A is an advantage. When it happens throughout an entire society, being A is deemed a form of privilege.

You're correct that to members of A, it looks like "getting nothing." That's exactly the point! And hence, a member of the privileged group can be blissfully unaware of their privilege, because the "privilege" is so regular a part of their daily existence that they don't NEED to think about it.

Since I mentioned transgender, I'll mention it again to make a point. Many transgender people believe in the existence of what they call "cisgender privilege," a category of privilege experienced by people whose bodies match their sense of gender identity (namely, everyone who posts here, as far as we know.) One form of "cisgender privilege" is that we can walk into the bathroom that matches our gender identity and use the bathroom without harassment or violence. I don't even think about "privilege" when I walk into the women's bathroom. But for someone who is transgender, walking into a public bathroom can subject the person to physical harassment, derogatory remarks, violence, or arrest. Since using the bathroom is such a basic part of daily life, I'm using this example to make a point: only the people who lack a given type of privilege are aware of it on a regular basis.

Last edited by tolkienpurist on Wed 13 Jun , 2007 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 2:54 am
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Well, if I can (abstract example) walk into work and assume that no one is going to punch me out when I come through the door because my hair is brown, while the redhead who sits next to me gets punched out once every two weeks on average, I would have to say having brown hair is an advantage.

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yovargas
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I think I pinpointed what bothers me about this language:
if you believe that someone else's disadvantage means your advantage, then it is as if you're being life as a competition of some sort - your loss = my gain. As I've said, I do not view it as a competition.


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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 3:07 am
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Life is a competition: to see who gets yelled at the least.

No, wait, that's just at my office.

Don't think of it as advantage and disadvantage. Think of it as sucking and not sucking. Basically, it sucks to be poor, non-white, and/or female, for the many reasons cited above. It sucks less than it did 200 years ago, but then, it sucks less for everyone, on average.

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 3:10 am
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yov - Privilege does not mean that "you believe someone else's disadvantage means your advantage." Not at all.

Let me try another example. I think that one form of straight privilege is that straight couples can get married. Every straight person has this privilege in Western society: if they fall in love, they are legally permitted to marry their partner. It is a form of "straight privilege" because gay people do not have this privilege in all but five or six Western countries. So, a restriction barring gay people from marrying gives straight people an "advantage" relative to gay people. It has nothing to do with whether a given straight person views life as a competition or agrees with the advantage they are given. It has nothing to do with whether they perceive themselves to have an advantage over gay people. It's very simple.

Desirable thing: Ability to marry the person you love, with attendant legal and social benefits.
Group that receives desirable thing: straight people
Group that doesn't receive desirable thing: gay people
Group that is privileged: straight people

One more example: ability to walk down the street at night with negligible fear of sexual assault/rape
Group that receives desirable thing: men
Group that doesn't receive desirable thing: women
Group that is privileged: men

It has nothing to do with competition; indeed, recognition of privilege is a first step towards ELIMINATING the competition by allowing access to said "desirable things" to all, equally.

Last edited by tolkienpurist on Wed 13 Jun , 2007 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord_Morningstar
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This discussion doesn't interest me that much, largely because I've had to have it about a dozen times while moving through the left-wing higher education system, but I agree with yovargas on pretty much everything.

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yovargas
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Whether techincally true or not, it is pretty clear to me that the languague of "other's disadvantage = my advantage" is coming from an us vs them mentality. That mentality ultimately does more harm than good, imo, even when it's supposed to be for good.


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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 13 Jun , 2007 12:43 pm
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yovargas--

Is it not possible, even likely, that the perception of (real, in these cases) disadvantage CREATED (and continues to reinforce) the us vs. them mentality? Trying to get rid of the latter without dealing at all with the former strikes me very much as a cart-before-the-horse approach.

Not to mention that, to be blunt, for some people on the privileged side of the equation, it is VERY much STILL an us-vs-them situation. You may not think so. All sorts of people may not think so. But so long as enough people with their hands on the levers of power think so, what anyone else thinks doesn't matter much, does it?

Make no mistake--I think, or perhaps hope, that in a couple of generations you'll be right. But a lot of rich white motherfuckers are going to have to die off first. And not all of them are old, trust me. TRUST me.

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yovargas
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Of course, Ax. I'm not saying that the mentality doesn't exist right now nor that it wasn't a major source of the problems to begin with. I'm saying that the solution is to kill that mentality ASAP, to realize the us vs them thing is and always was bullshit, that we're all on the same team. I'm saying that IMO those lists nel posted or the affirmative action-type laws do just the opposite, preaching that we are on different teams thus perpetuating the lie that is at the root of all this.


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Axordil
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To observe is not to preach. One can't kill a monster by just saying it's dead.

One can look at affirmative action and such as cognitive therapy for society: if you make people in decision-making positions actually consider those they might (and in some cases, would) not, even if it takes putting them on the top of the pile, eventually the "otherness" goes away and you can stop forcing the issue. In other words, if you have a bad habit, you fix it by instituting a different, better habit, not by trying to get rid of habits in general--which is much, much harder to do.

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yovargas
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But it's not a different habit! It's the same thing - the habit of putting people on separate teams. That's the bad habit we need to break. My disadvantage is NOT someone else's advantage unless they're against me. But we are NOT against each other.


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Axordil
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Keep telling yourself that. Like I said, maybe eventually it'll be true.

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yovargas
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It only becomes true when everyone is telling themselves that.
I'll start with myself and hope that everyone, including you and nel, will follow along.


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tolkienpurist
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No, I will not follow along, yov. You appear to want everyone - including people disadvantaged by social realities - to be blind to those realities, so that maybe they will go away. I am not 'competing' against whites, straights, men, etc. Nor do I want to be 'competing' against would-be immigrants, the lower-class, the less-educated, or any less 'privileged' category to which I do not belong. But recognizing where the privileged are privileged - whether or not I fall into the privileged camp myself - is a necessary first step in breaking down that privilege.
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Is it not possible, even likely, that the perception of (real, in these cases) disadvantage CREATED (and continues to reinforce) the us vs. them mentality? Trying to get rid of the latter without dealing at all with the former strikes me very much as a cart-before-the-horse approach.
This says everything I have to say on this point.

Have fun believing that someone else's advantage that is exactly parallel to your disadvantage (or vice versa) are unrelated and uncorrelated. Have fun not "competing" against them. I really find your position on this issue to be completely incomprehensible; the only other time I've felt this way is with your equally strange argument that governments can legitimately make NO distinction between citizens and non-citizens as we are all human.


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