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Campaign 2008

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:08 am
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
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Not trying to start trouble here, but aren't opinions the ones that don't need to be supported?




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halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:10 am
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if you are trying to make a point with an opinion, you would need data to support that opinion makes the point you want to make.

facts don't need support, they are simply facts. They ARE the support.

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:12 am
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Sorry Eru, things are moving too fast for us at the moment and spilling into too many threads. We'll get this cleaned up eventually! :help:

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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:19 am
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Hey Eru, I'm thinking the same but in the name of good manners we'd like CG's permission first.

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Eruname
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:49 am
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Riverthalos wrote:
Hey Eru, I'm thinking the same but in the name of good manners we'd like CG's permission first.
:scratch:

I don't see why you need his permission. It's off topic and also disrupting. It's best separated out.

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:56 am
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:yes:


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:57 am
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I also agree, as long as the split off thread stays here, and is not moved to the bikeracks. that I would strenuously object to.

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*E*V*E*N*S*T*A*R*
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 1:01 am
I've cried a thousand oceans, and I would cry a thousand more if that's what it takes to sail you home.
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Ooo, thanks hal, I can see what you mean there. Makes sense, though I do think that sometimes opinion and fact are all mushed up together.

*tips hat*




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Riverthalos
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 2:00 am
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Erunáme wrote:
Riverthalos wrote:
Hey Eru, I'm thinking the same but in the name of good manners we'd like CG's permission first.
:scratch:

I don't see why you need his permission. It's off topic and also disrupting. It's best separated out.
It's his thread, that's why.

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 2:15 am
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Evenstar
A fact and an opinion are two different things.
A fact can be independently verified by objective evidence or authoritative sources.
An opinion, is a statement of ones own viewpoint that cannot be verified by objective evidence or authoritative sources but is solely within the province and judgement of the person expressing the opinion.

For example, let us say that you allege that Abraham Lincoln was the 16th President of the USA.

I say he was not.

You keep insisting that he was.

I now ask you to "prove it".

You quote the Encylclopedia, volume and page number which says "Abraham Lincoln, the 16th President of the USA......"

You allege a fact, I ask you to prove it, you do using authoritative sources... case closed.

If you claim that Abraham Lincoln sucked as a President, that is an opinion. It cannot be verified by and authoritative or objective sources and is solely within the province and judgement of yourself based on your own feelings.

One cannot disguise opinion as fact by simply putting the words
I believe
I think
It is my opinion
or any variation of these on allegations of fact just to slip by the rules and demands of verifying ones supporting evidence or assertions.

For example: I think Abraham Lincoln was the 15th President of the USA. Just because I put the words "I Think" of front of a falsehood does not elevate my falsehood to the protected level of personal opinion and remove from it the obligation of myself to support it with evidence.

I hope that helps.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Sun 16 Nov , 2008 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 2:18 am
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You missed those facts that are simply observed.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 8:58 pm
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Feredir wrote:
The thing I find funny is that people want to blame all of this on Bush. However, there have been Republican AND Democrat controlled House/ Senate over the last eight years and all the blame goes on Bush. The entire lot is to blame!
Forty years even. A lot of the modern problems I trace back to Nixon.

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Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 10:08 pm
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You're going to let FDR off the hook?

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 10:11 pm
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What about Franklin Pierce for heavens sake?!?!?!

Or what about John Quincy Adams for crying out loud?!?!?!?!

So soon they forget. :bang:

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 10:11 pm
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The further back you go the more diluted the effects become. I said I trace the modern problems to Nixon. I could, if I'm willing, establish some decently solid links to the founding of the Federal Reserve, a few decades before FDR attacked the economy with a hatchet and a hammer.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 10:18 pm
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SF, The New deal profoundly changed how our economic system works. It causes problems to this day. There are other profound changes previous to that of course, but The welfare state we live in today is a direct result of FDR's policies surviving 60 years longer than they were intended to.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 10:19 pm
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I see what you're saying hal, and you're right that I gave FDR too little credit in that post, but I did try to emphasize the word "modern". What Nixon did was take a mess created by FDR and made it worse.

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It is a myth that coercion is necessary in order to force people to get along together, but it is a persistent myth because it feeds a desire many people have. That desire is to be able to justify hurting people who have done nothing other than offend them in some way.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 10:22 pm
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Can't argue with that

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sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Mon 17 Nov , 2008 10:22 pm
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and Pierce took what that fool Quincy Adams did and made it worse. Some say we have never recovered. Of course, the Adams lobby blames Madison. But we know what motivates that don't we? ;)

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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