board77

teachers unions are some of the worst. They don't hold "evil corporate fat cats" hostage. They hold children, families, and all the companies those families work for hostage... not to mention the state.

Exactly who's greed were you fighting so hard agains for all those years, SF?

As I suspected and I appreciate your candor. When your father and grandfather were part of the unions there was a bonafide need for unions. There was no protection from unfair practices. I just have a hard time seeing where they have a purpose in today's economy when they play hardball.

My "union" is more of a bargaining unit since we cannot strike or have a work slow down. Both of these are against Federal Law. I see the value in a union working to find out what the membership wants and then negotiate with management. The key there is negotiate.

However, when the unions have more power in who stays and who goes, then that is bad for everyone. I stand by my assertion that the UAW holds a lot of blame in the current auto makers problems. Why should someone who stands there, puts six lugnuts on a wheel get paid over $40/hr?


freddy

from Hal

Quote:

teachers unions are some of the worst. They don't hold "evil corporate fat cats" hostage. They hold children, families, and all the companies those families work for hostage... not to mention the state.

A most hate-filled vitriolic opinion to be sure... but where is the back-up.... the factual evidence .... the analysis to support this angst?

You know Hal, I am really glad you posted here. Over the years I have seen you post poisonous vitriol about all kind of things political, educational and sociological. But I kept asking myself " On what planet does this guy live? "What reality does he inhabit?" Where does he get this stuff from?"

So maybe you can tell me just what your own educational and experience background is.

When you opine about public education... just what knowledge do you have about it? Do have a degree in education? Were you a teacher? Do you have practical experience? Just what is it that makes you qualified to hold court and pontificate about the state of public education and teachers unions with any degree of believability?

I will be good enough to lay my cards on the table for you just to show you I would not ask of you what I would not give myself. I have a Bachelors Degree in Political Science and a Masters in Education specializing in Curriculum Development. I taught for 34 years, mostly Government and US History on the High School level. I was a union official for the last 21 years and steward of my school as well as other union positions. I was classified as a Master Teacher which means I was rated by several principals as the top 20% of the staff and trained over a dozen student teachers from colleges. I hae visited schools in Japan and have spoke at seminars around the country on comparing Japanese education to American education. I have attended countless other educational conferences both as a participant and as a attendee.

So those are my cards Hal. When we talk about public education, I know of what I speak.

How about you?

For knowing so much, it's amazing how little you understand how unions operate.

I love how you seem to want to make things personal and attack me, ignoring my question entirely.

Nobody is attacking you Hal. Please stop making this personal. I am simply trying to first find out if you know anything about what you are holding court about before I invest any time with you. Far too many times, on this board and on others, far too many people spout off about things which they clearly do not have any actual knowledge of.

If I am going to engage with you on the subject of public education and teachers unions, I first want to know if you actually know what you are talking about.

If I criticize a surgeons technique, the first thing he is going to ask me is to I have the education, experience and expertise to open up my mouth and criticize him.

So when you criticize public education and teachers unions, I want to know if you have the education. experience and expertise to open up your mouth with any credibility or believability or you just an empty barrel attempting to make lots of meaningless noise?

Yes, this is a message board, we don't actually require people to be experts to discuss things. Your arrogance and assumption you are right are beyond unacceptable, though.

Well Hal, it I am doing something wrong here you should do what you do so often and so well .... go run to the administrators and say that "mean old SF is being mean to you again. He had the nerve to actually ask me if I knew what I was spouting off about. Imagine the nerve of that man!!! Since when do you actually need to know what you are talking about before pontificating about it before criticizing professionals who have given their professional lives to the education of children. "
Maybe you can try to get me banned for simply asking if you truly know what you are talking about. Or you could prove me wrong.

You see Hal, everybody has the right to spout off. No doubt about that. But before I give you any respect for your views and opinions - as pointless and vitriolic as they may be - I want to know if you know what you are talking about or is this yet another in an seemingly endless series of posts you make about all kinds of complicated subjects that you know nothing about.

Now right about here is usually the place where you start crying about how you are not going to stay here and take this abuse and you are never coming back. That is your pattern that you have done over and over again.

At least until you do.

I would prefer you stay and engage in discussion as long as you know of what you speak. Otherwise, its just empty noise.

well, I don't have ANY respect for your views or opinions, so I hardly know why you feel the need to give mine any (which you clearly don't).

I have no intention of trying to get you banned, there's no money in it. I do have every intention of making sure your asinine method of "discussion" where you dodge the questions, and attack the people who dare to disagree with you, is not allowed to persist.

Here's my question again, in case you missed it:

Exactly who's greed were you fighting so hard against for all those years, SF?

Feredir
Obviously I cannot speak to personal situations in your life or family that I know nothing about. I will say this however....... unions are no different than any other entity made up of people.... they can make mistakes and have done so. If anyone expects perfection out of anyone in this life, you are in for a world of heartache and constantly being letdown.

I think unions are as important today as they ever were. All a union is is basically an organization to represent the workers in its dealings with management. In the absence of a union, all you have is the individual going up against a large and powerful company which has assets and weapons far greater than any individual has.

That basic fact was true 100 years ago and it is true today. The individual worker - as an individual worker - is virtually powerless on his or her own against the company. That is simply a fact of life.

Hal - you terribly miss the point by asking such a silly question in the first place.
The fact that you would phrase a question in such a way shows that you have no real knowledge about unions, let alone the specialized field of teacher unions. Of course, that has never stopped you in the past.

Unions, and my efforts in them, is not about fighting against anything. Its about fighting for positive things. Its about banding together with your fellow workers and fighting collectively for wages, benefits, hours and working condidtions. Teacher unions also fight for educational reform to improve the lives of the children we have given our professional lives for.

So your silence regarding your own background and knowledge seems to have answered my question as well.

So now we are even.

The company I work for is *not* unionized.

[edit: removed too much information about the company I work for]

Without unions, I imagine big companies would be run like this, too.

You're fighting "collectively for wages, benefits, hours and working condidtions." without regards for skill or performance, claiming everyone in the union is the same and deserves the same.

And you threaten to shut down the schools interrupting the lives of everyone involved if you don't get what you want.

You're also wrong about an individual having no power over their relationship with their employer. If they perform their job well, they will be rewarded for it, or the employer will lose that valuable employee.

I have not been silent about anything, SF, I'm just ignoring your attacks, which I still hope will be removed.

sauronsfinger wrote:

Please stop making this personal.

Until/Unless I hear from a Ranger about this, I would just like to say that it's kind of silly to bring up a poster's health and financial history in regards to a discussion about unions, and then ask them to not make it personal from there.

I know folks don't like to hear out a person they feel is talking from their ass, but then neither does anyone need credentials to post here or prove themselves. If you deem someone unworthy of your time, please feel free to ignore them through sheer will, or by adding them to your "foe" list (it's in the User Control Panel).




*E*

SF,
I think on the surface you and I agree about unions. They should be used for bargaining and finding what the majority of their members want and fight for that. Am I reading you correctly?

Where I think we might disagree is how some unions do their business. Since you were in the teaching profession I will ask this of you. If a teacher screws up, I mean big time, but he/she is has tenure should they be allotted special protection to avoid firing?

Should there be performance objectives with punitive results for a lack of performance?
(this does not necessarily mean firing but loss of certain privileges until performance is improved)

I personally think the NEA is likely the most powerful lobbying group in our country and I question how much they really listen to their members. I also question why teachers strike?

I remember when Clinton was running for his first term and the National FOP came out in support for him without polling our members and they had to retract their endorsement because we as a union did not want him as president. There is now a vote every election for the endorsement and majority rules.

freddy

Quote:

You're fighting "collectively for wages, benefits, hours and working condidtions." without regards for skill or performance, claiming everyone in the union is the same and deserves the same.

Skill is no problem since the State certifies that we are skilled and qualified. We all do the same job, over the same hours teaching the same children. I see not problem with that.

Quote:

And you threaten to shut down the schools interrupting the lives of everyone involved if you don't get what you want.

No child I have ever taught in 34 years missed one single day of education due to a teachers work stoppage. Not one.

Quote:

You're also wrong about an individual having no power over their relationship with their employer. If they perform their job well, they will be rewarded for it, or the employer will lose that valuable employee.

That is naive at best, woefully ignorant of history at worst.

Quote:

I have not been silent about anything, SF, I'm just ignoring your attacks, which I still hope will be removed.

Ah yes. "please remove and edit those offensive posts .... he's being mean to me again." You should bring back you Mr. Bill photo. It fit like a glove.

sauronsfinger wrote:

Quote:

You're fighting "collectively for wages, benefits, hours and working condidtions." without regards for skill or performance, claiming everyone in the union is the same and deserves the same.

Skill is no problem since the State certifies that we are skilled and qualified. We all do the same job, over the same hours teaching the same children. I see not problem with that.

You think teaching gym is the same as teaching music? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Or how about literature and physics? You think by virtue of being a math teacher you can coach the football team?

Quote:

Quote:

And you threaten to shut down the schools interrupting the lives of everyone involved if you don't get what you want.

No child I have ever taught in 34 years missed one single day of education due to a teachers work stoppage. Not one.

That's a very carefully crafted statement that implies to me you're hiding somehing. How many days of work did teachers miss due to work stoppages in those 34 years?

Quote:

Quote:

You're also wrong about an individual having no power over their relationship with their employer. If they perform their job well, they will be rewarded for it, or the employer will lose that valuable employee.

That is naive at best, woefully ignorant of history at worst.

Bullshit. Most people that love unions fail to grasp the basic concept of business... that is to make money. Employees are hired to do a job, and they are compensated to do that job. It's a free country, they can go get a different job if they find a better company that's making more money, and can compensate them more. The company needs the freedom to change their workforce and how much it costs to continue to improve the company and try to make more money, which will allow them to compensate their workers more.

What is naive about this conversation, is that you believe there is a war between companies and workers, and the reality is that it is a symbiotic relationship, when one succeeds, so does the other. One cannot feed off the other like a parasite, or the company dies.

Quote:

Quote:

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I have not been silent about anything, SF, I'm just ignoring your attacks, which I still hope will be removed.

Ah yes. "please remove and edit those offensive posts .... he's being mean to me again." You should bring back you Mr. Bill photo. It fit like a glove.

It's not about being mean, it's about violating the rules of the board, not to mention good taste.

You two are making it very difficult to have a decent conversation (one for each of you)


freddy

There isn't any need to speak personally to anyone about any issue or bring personal issues into a thread.
Speak to the topic and stop with the uneeded personal griping. If you can't just speak to the topic without becoming personal then stop posting.

SF please remove the personal hearsay from your posts. They have no business here.

And with that I am gone for the weekend.

you forgot the bit about the exits by the wings and the cushions being used as flotation devices...

Sorry, I could not resist, but seriously, some of you, please tone it down, those of us who would like to respond get sick of the sniping and personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but they also need to remember to express it in a way that is not personally confrontational.

Please.