board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Campaign 2008

Post Reply   Page 32 of 33  [ 659 posts ]
Jump to page « 129 30 31 32 33 »
Author Message
vison
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 12:39 am
Best friends forever
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6546
Joined: Fri 04 Feb , 2005 4:49 am
 
Like several others here, I was brought up in a "union" household. I understood the need for the union when I was only a child. Here's a story: my Dad worked for the municipality (now called a "city" but it's the same entity). When he began working there the employees were paid in cash at the end of every week. After the union was certified (which was another whole story!) the first "demand" the union made was to request that the employees be paid by cheque every 2 weeks or twice a month, whichever the employer preferred.

The city comptroller replied: "Cheques!!! Do any of these stupid bastards actually have bank accounts?" He said a lot more, but that's verbatim.

Never mind that paying by cheque served the employer's interests at least as much as the employees'. No need for the armed guard bringing the bags of money, etc. Simpler book-keeping, no need to count out amounts like $42.17, etc. No, the employers saw it as a power struggle. Eventually they had to give in, of course, even then there weren't many employers still paying out cash on paydays.

Every single innovation was fought for. Every one. Medical insurance. Sick pay. Vacation time. Seniority. Every single one. Were and are there abuses? Of course there are. We are talking about human beings here. So, dump the unions? Not bloody likely. The economic times we're in for will see to the reduction of "too much union power" quick as quick. I just hope they don't go too far and that the fight has to be fought over again.

I wouldn't call GM's employees "greedy" unless you are willing to call GM "greedy", too. The point is, those union contracts were made in a time when businesses like GM thought the gravy train was going to run forever. They were wrong. They had their warnings when Toyotas first started selling in the US. Did they heed the signs? No, they did not. This mess is because simple business sense took a back seat to blind arrogance and ignorance of the real world. Sux.

The only power the working man has the threat to withdraw his labour. That's it. Take that right away and you have tyranny.

_________________

Living on Earth is expensive,
but it does include a free trip
around the sun every year.


Top
Profile Quote
LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 1:01 am
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
Offline
 
Posts: 21756
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 3:46 pm
 
sauronsfinger wrote:

If I am going to engage with you on the subject of public education and teachers unions, I first want to know if you actually know what you are talking about.

If I criticize a surgeons technique, the first thing he is going to ask me is to I have the education, experience and expertise to open up my mouth and criticize him.

So when you criticize public education and teachers unions, I want to know if you have the education. experience and expertise to open up your mouth with any credibility or believability or you just an empty barrel attempting to make lots of meaningless noise?
I would just like to add that I do not believe you need to have a degree or be an expert in a field to be able to discuss it, criticize it, praise it, etc. (particularly in a forum like a messageboard!). Of course, finding out as much about it as possible only lends credibility to your opinions and words, but I definitely disagree with the notion that one has to be an expert in a field to form an opinion of it.

Sometimes our own experiences are enough to lend credence to our views. I grew up in a public school; I experienced a teacher's strike (during which we most definitely lost educational days), and, as a homeschooler, I deal with the education system and our state's laws. I am also personal friends with several teachers (both public and private) and, obviously, many homeschool moms and dads, several of whom were or are public or private school teachers. And, in the same way, I'd say a parent with children in the public or private school system has that hands-on experience to guide their opinions.

I have respect for educators. Absolutely! I see the advantages and disadvantages that the unions provide, in the educational field and in other fields. But I don't like a lot of what the teachers' union does and promotes. (Too big for their britches, comes to mind. And I think that's the main danger all unions face.)


Lali

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 2:16 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 9:28 pm
Location: The real world
 
from Hal
Quote:
Most people that love unions fail to grasp the basic concept of business... that is to make money.
Here is a newsflash for you - the school system is not a business and its not there to make money. Never has been - never will be. Are you that uninformed about something so basic and fundamental as that?


from EVANSTAR
Quote:
I know folks don't like to hear out a person they feel is talking from their ass, but then neither does anyone need credentials to post here or prove themselves. If you deem someone unworthy of your time, please feel free to ignore them through sheer will, or by adding them to your "foe" list (it's in the User Control Panel).
Sorry but I disagree completly. If you or Hal or anybody is going to talk to me about public education and teachers unions you better damn well know what you are talking about. Lies and just plain ignorance will not be allowed to pass. It is far better to expose that they are indeed talking out of their ass - as you put it - and that has been clearly shown on Hals part.

"oh my, its just Hal being Hal again. chuckle chuckle - isn't is cute"


So how many years has that been allowed to continue. How many boards does he need to be banned from?

His opinion, based on god knows what, is suppose to be equal to a person who spent their entire professional career doing what he only mumbles about.

Ignorance disguised as opinion is still ignorance. No matter how many moots he has gone too and how many people feel sorry for his life.

Do as you please .... but he is a joke. And a bad joke at that.

so this comes from hal
Quote:
ROFL, spoken like a true communist
And I guess thats perfectly okay within the rules right folks? Maybe you can discuss it with Hal at the next moot.

Do any of you have any idea at all when education, credentials and experience actually mean? I know Hal does not.

I would invite Hal to talk this out... but he is deathly afraid to do so. Always has been. Never shows up and prefers to send countless PM's to the mods begging for help. And ifthat does not work he makes a teary eyed post saying he is leaving and never will return.

Until he does. Which always happens.

And then I get a PM from somebody who tells me to ease up on Hal. After all the guy has no life and lives in his own world and people feel sorry for him... so I should ease up when he talks through is ass as Evenstar puts it about techers unions. Sorry folks - it aint gonna happen.

I cut him no slack and could not care less about his problems. No tears are falling from these eyes no matter how many PM's I get asking for me to become one of the sob sisters.

You attack public education - a career which I gave my professional life to, you will be exposed. You attack teacher unions about which you know nothing, you will be exposed.

Last edited by elfshadow on Tue 18 Nov , 2008 10:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Edited by Ranger to remove personal info about another poster at that poster's request, edited again by elfshadow 11/18/08

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Top
Profile Quote
LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 2:37 am
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
Offline
 
Posts: 21756
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 3:46 pm
 
You're totally out of line, sf.

:roll:


Lali

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Feredir
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 2:38 am
 
 
PSSSST, SF. Try to stay focused. I asked you some questions a while back. Can you answer them so we can get back on task?



thanks,
freddy


Top
Quote
sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 2:40 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 9:28 pm
Location: The real world
 
NO I AM NOT TOTALLY OUT OF LINE LALAITH.

What I am is very angry. What I am is fed up. What I am is a person who is not going to stand by and watch the rest of you act like the damn dog just peed on the rug again but its okay cause he is our favorite dog and its so cute anways.

If YOU and the other powers that be had done something about this years ago, it would not come to this now.

See Lalaith I don't think Hal is some cute big old huggy bear to be humored and coddled.

But calling somebody a friggin COMMUNIST goes unnoticed by you does it?

I should have gone to the darn moot. Maybe then I would know the secret handshake and the proper passwords.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Top
Profile Quote
sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 2:42 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 9:28 pm
Location: The real world
 
Freddy - what do you want to know?

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Top
Profile Quote
Jude
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 2:55 am
Aspiring to heresy
User avatar
Online
 
Posts: 19652
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 6:54 pm
Location: Canada
 
sf, where do you get the idea that halpm is our favourite dog?

Honestly, until your last couple of posts I thought you were behaving better than him. Why has your tone changed all of a sudden? Do you imagine that we're all ganging up with him against you?

We aren't.

_________________

[ img ]

Melkor and Ungoliant in need of some relationship counselling.


Top
Profile Quote
Feredir
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 3:01 am
 
 
Repost for SF:
Feredir wrote:
SF,
I think on the surface you and I agree about unions. They should be used for bargaining and finding what the majority of their members want and fight for that. Am I reading you correctly?

Where I think we might disagree is how some unions do their business. Since you were in the teaching profession I will ask this of you. If a teacher screws up, I mean big time, but he/she is has tenure should they be allotted special protection to avoid firing?

Should there be performance objectives with punitive results for a lack of performance?
(this does not necessarily mean firing but loss of certain privileges until performance is improved)

I personally think the NEA is likely the most powerful lobbying group in our country and I question how much they really listen to their members. I also question why teachers strike?

I remember when Clinton was running for his first term and the National FOP came out in support for him without polling our members and they had to retract their endorsement because we as a union did not want him as president. There is now a vote every election for the endorsement and majority rules.

freddy


Top
Quote
LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 3:02 am
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
Offline
 
Posts: 21756
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 3:46 pm
 
sauronsfinger wrote:
NO I AM NOT TOTALLY OUT OF LINE LALAITH.
Yes, actually you are, and I'm talking about you, not hal. I wasn't here when hal said what he said and other rangers have made decisions regarding that. I support their decision to give you both a warning and an opportunity to edit your posts yourselves, as we are only to do that ourselves as a last resort.

Quote:
If YOU and the other powers that be had done something about this years ago, it would not come to this now.
This is almost beyond words, sf. Honestly, if we had any powers as Rangers, YOU would be gone from here.


Quote:
But calling somebody a friggin COMMUNIST goes unnoticed by you does it?
Not unnoticed, but it wasn't my call because I wasn't around when it all first happened.
Quote:
I should have gone to the darn moot. Maybe then I would know the secret handshake and the proper passwords.
Maybe hal should have, too, since he wasn't there. Maybe I should have, since I wasn't there either. You're being ridiculous.


Lali

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Feredir
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 3:03 am
 
 
You know what I've found is the best thing to do with someone who annoys you this much? Ignore them. It works everytime.


freddy


Top
Quote
halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:04 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Yes, it does not require data. Sometimes you can use logic and, you know, think, without even seeing any data. It's amazing.

strikes disrupt education. That's thier purpose. They are done to disrupt education, so that the teacher's union has a more powerful position in negotiating whatever it is they want.

There is no arguing with that. There is no need for data to back it up. It is why strikes are done.

Last edited by halplm on Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile Quote
sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:08 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 9:28 pm
Location: The real world
 
from Lalaith
Quote:
This may certainly not be the experience of all students during a strike, but it is my personal experience. Our teachers went on strike for a few weeks. We, the students, supported them on this, though that may have been more for the drama of it all than out of genuine concern with the issues. At first, we were just sort of shuttled from large area to large area, broken up into grade levels. There was no learning going on, I can assure you of that. We simply hung out all day.
Lalaith, where was this? Because every time I went on strike, there was no school. I am gratified and happy that you the students supported the teachers.

Quote:
Some teachers behaved very badly. My English teacher threw himself in front of a car and got run over. (He was not seriously injured. Twit.)
Only a fool would do something like that. No excuse for that.
Quote:
They brought in scab teachers for the next week or so. Where they got these "teachers" is beyond me. They were truly the bottom of the barrel. Sort of the freaks of the teaching world, if you will. A teacher freak show.
That agrees compeltely with other smaller districts where I have seen scabs brought in to attempt to "teach" and break the strike.

Quote:
We were broken up into general classes. Again, I can assure you that NO learning took place during that time. I had a "teacher" tell us in "science" class that, "Biology is what we're studying. Biology is made up of two words--bi and ology. Bi means two. Ology means study of. So this is the study of two--the animal kingdom and the plant kingdom."

We, the students, ended up walking out of school in protest of the crap we were being forced to endure.
Your sad experience clearly shows the value in having qualfied teachers who know what they are doing. Perhaps this unfortunate experience underlined this lesson for all. Even a cloud sometimes has a silver lining.
Quote:
Now, truly, our teachers might have been doing this for legitimate reasons. (Unfortunately, I don't remember why they went on strike.) But I think Freddy is onto something; I don't think they should be allowed to strike. Would you put them on the same level of importance as firefighters, police officers, nurses, etc.? I think I would, especially as much as so many parents rely on the schools to be there for their kids while they work.
Again Lalaith, this goes back to the school calendar. Students only attend school basically for 9 and 1/2 months. This leaves lots of time to make up days missed for any reason if necessary to do so. This is not the case with the other public servants you mention where a day missed cannot be made up.
Quote:
Car makers go on strike and stop making cars. Eh, so what? Teachers go on strike? Kids miss school and parents are left scrambling. Or they have to attend "school" and be babysat with no education going on at all. (They did not extend our school year, btw. That counted as education.)


The problem there seems to be with the decision by the administration to run scab schools with scab teachers and damage childrens education accordingly. If they had merely shut down the school for the duration of the strike, there is more than ample room in the year to make up those days with qualfied teachers who know how to teach children.

Lalaith, I am sincere when I say I am sorry you had this terrible experience. It could have been avoided and I wish it was.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Top
Profile Quote
sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:10 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 9:28 pm
Location: The real world
 
Hal - educational decisions and public policy decisions are not made using logic theory gleamed from a freshman Logic 101 course. They are made using hard data from experience and educational research.

If you want to make an assertion - which is one of the main points in your criticism of teacher unions - the responsibility is upon you to back up your assertion with actual factual evidence.

Do you have any dard date to put before this board?

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:16 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
sauronsfinger wrote:
Hal - educational decisions and public policy decisions are not made using logic theory gleamed from a freshman Logic 101 course. They are made using hard data from experience and educational research.

If you want to make an assertion - which is one of the main points in your criticism of teacher unions - the responsibility is upon you to back up your assertion with actual factual evidence.

Do you have any dard date to put before this board?

Trying to help you out here, SF. Highlighted in red above are the parts of your post that are directed at me personally and have nothing to do with the "discussion" we're attempting to have. Highlighted in blue, are your opinions that you are using to try to dismiss my point of view due to an opinion you have about education. An opinion, conveniently enough for you, requires nothing to support your own warped view, and dismisses anyone that disagrees with you.

The actual fact is that strikes are done to disrupt education and the lives of everyone involved with the school. This is not a matter of policy decisions or data or anything. This is why strikes are done. Otherwise, they serve no purpose.

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile Quote
sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:24 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 9:28 pm
Location: The real world
 
You see Hal, you can use all the colors of the rainbow and it changes nothing.

You seem to believe that you stating your opinion is equal to facts. You opinion is your belief and you are entitled to it.

When you make an allegation of fact: ie: teacher strikes harm students education, it is your responsibility to support it with evidence of fact.

Remember what Evanstar said yesterday. We want to know if somebody is not just talking out of their ass. That was her term not mine.

If you have any proof in factual evidence or hard data that teacher strikes have a long term negative effect on students learing, please present it.

We all now agree that you were right and I was wrong. The Rangers were right and I was wrong.

You do not need a degree in the subject to post about it.
You do not need experience in a subject to post about it.
You do not need credentials in a subject to post about it.
You do not need any actual knowled to about a subject to post about it.
You do not even have to make sense in discussing a subject to post about it.

You are on solid ground in all these things.

You were right about this. The Rangers were right about this.

Yes, I have a Masters Degree in Education specializing in Curriculum Developement.
Yes, I have 34 years of practical teaching experience.
Yes, I was rated as a Master Teacher, being in the top 20% of my schools staff as rated by several principals.
Yes, I trained over a dozen student teachers from college.
Yes, I was a union official for 21 years and know intimately how teacher unions work.
Yes, I attended countless conferences and came back to my district and in-serviced hundreds of teachers with the information.
Yes to all these things.

I thought they meant something when we talk about teachers unions and education but I found out they mean nothing.

You and the Rangers informed me that even though you have none of this background, qualfications, experience, credentials or knowledge you can still post about this topic.

You were right and I was wrong.

But if you make an assertion of fact: teacher union strikes harm childrens education development - that assertion of fact must be proven as fact. That has nothing to do with your lack of a degree in education, your lack of experience in education, your lack of credentials in education, your lack of knowledge about education or anything else.

It is simply the way that debate works.

You make an assertion of fact to support your case. The other side hears your assertion, sees no factual support for it, and asks you for factual evidene to support your claim. Hal , that is how debate works.

Otherwise, we are forced to come back to the comment Evanstar made yesterday.

Last edited by sauronsfinger on Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:26 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Never said long term. Don't put words in my mouth, to twist them to something you can argue about.

You're changing the subject to suit your needs because there is no arguing with my statements, which are facts, not opinions.

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile Quote
sauronsfinger
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sat 15 Nov , 2008 11:36 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4336
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 9:28 pm
Location: The real world
 
Fine then - show me any hard data to support your assertion of fact. Show me any hard data or research which concludes that teacher strikes harm students educational development.

_________________

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:03 am
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
once again, I did not say it harms their educational development. It disrupts the education they are getting at that time. Don't put words into my mouth so you can make your point.

My statements are facts, not opinions, and do not need data to support them.

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile Quote
Eruname
Post subject: Re: Campaign 2008
Posted: Sun 16 Nov , 2008 12:06 am
Islanded in a Stream of Stars
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 8748
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:24 pm
Location: UK
Contact: Website
 
Can the Rangers split off all this union/education stuff? It has absolutely nothing to do with the campaign.

_________________

Abandon this fleeting world
abandon yourself.
Then the moon and flowers
will guide you along the way.

-Ryokan

http://wanderingthroughmiddleearth.blogspot.com/


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 32 of 33  [ 659 posts ]
Return to “The Symposium” | Jump to page « 129 30 31 32 33 »
Jump to: