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Do you believe in aliens?

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Well, do you?
Yes, of the micro-organism type.
  
6% [ 1 ]
Yes, of the Star-trek "Live long and prosper" type
  
17% [ 3 ]
Yes, of the OMG WE'RE BEING TAKEN OVER ALIENS GONNA EAT ME type
  
6% [ 1 ]
Combination of answers 2 + 3.
  
17% [ 3 ]
No.
  
11% [ 2 ]
We can't know - for now.
  
44% [ 8 ]
Total votes: 18
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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 12:26 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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yovargas wrote:
And I think we know a lot less than we think we do. :)
Exactly! We haven't been anywhere! There could be billions of other universe out there with another Earth and our dopplegangers walking around. Who's to say it's impossible or even improbible. That's why I loved the end of the movie Men In Black. No I'm not saying that MIB is some sort of conspiracy or even to be taken seriously but the ending kind of put things into perspective.

I'm not surprised that people who don't believe in God also don't believe in aliens (it kinda has the DUH factor attached to it). But I was curious if anyone believes aliens exist but God doesn't and if so why?

(If this is derailing the thread I'll gladly start a new one since I'm curious about the answer to my question)

ETA: And demons aren't aliens unless they come from a far off place IMO

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 12:45 am
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TheMary wrote:
I'm not surprised that people who don't believe in God also don't believe in aliens (it kinda has the DUH factor attached to it). But I was curious if anyone believes aliens exist but God doesn't and if so why?
Aliens are more probable than gods. Observations of life outnumber observations of deities by one.


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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 12:53 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Scientifically speaking isn't there more proof that supports stuff in the Bible (dead sea scrolls, Jesus' death wrapper etc) than alien life existing on other planets? There might not be hence the question mark. Neither has been proven either way so wouldn't they both kinda be equal in that respect?

Dave: What observations of life? Nessie and Big Foot? Flying saucers? What about the dead sea scrolls isn't that an observation of artifact? :D

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Why do you weep?
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Dave_LF
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:15 am
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All life on Earth appears to constitute a single observation of life; meaning that all known organisms are believed to trace back to a single generational event. It's possible that something here truly evolved separately, but if so we haven't found it yet.


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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:22 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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We evolved from aliens? :Q That really puts that monkey theory to shame ;)

Thanks for sharing Dave :)

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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:38 am
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TheMary wrote:
Scientifically speaking isn't there more proof that supports stuff in the Bible (dead sea scrolls, Jesus' death wrapper etc) than alien life existing on other planets? There might not be hence the question mark. Neither has been proven either way so wouldn't they both kinda be equal in that respect?

Dave: What observations of life? Nessie and Big Foot? Flying saucers? What about the dead sea scrolls isn't that an observation of artifact? :D
The Dead Sea scrolls only deal with Judaism, and have been dated from between 100 BCE to possibly 200 AD, but have little if anything to offer on the life of Jesus Christ or Christianity itself. What "proof" the Dead Sea Scrolls offer is that there is indeed a history of the same written "prescripts" that are found in the Torah and Judaic teachings as have been found elsewhere.

The Shroud of Turin is a proven fake. It is a medieval forgery that, although very cleverly done, and obviously done by someone with a great grasp of the technology of the time, could NOT be true, even if a suspension of disbeleif is granted. Firstly and foremostly, a cloth wrapped around a human face and supposedly recording "imprints" of that face would be hugely distorted on a cloth when viewed in a purely two dimensional framework, if nothing else. :)

Where as the "search" for extraterrestrial life is still a guessing game, but it is one that is based on what we know and understand about physics, chemical processes, and biology here on earth, even in the most harsh conditions. It is more accurately termed a "what if" sort of game where those who research it say "what if" and then try and work backwards, if you will. Still, it is all speculation, although speculation at least based on some tangible scientific facts.

Oh, BTW, another movie I have not seen mentioned here is 2010, the sequal to 2001, both written by Arthur Clarke. The premise in 2010 is totally impossible, Jupiter would NEVER have enough critical mass to become a mini star. But, there IS some serious speculation out there about Jupiter's gravitational effects on Europa, which DOES seem to have more water per measure of surface area than even Earth - and with the frictions that the gravity would cause, there would be lots of internal stresses and thus heat and maybe even volcanism. But heck, we are even decades away from probing Europa decently, so I am not worried about Twilight Zone aliens or Independence Day nasties landing here. Heck, if the alien probes ARE true, it would seem that they find us most wanting, since they invariably dump their captured victims back here to tell us all of the ordeals they faced...

I do not jest, I once had a client/customer who swore to me that she and her daughter had weird unidentifiable metal fragments in their knees and other parts of their bodies that doctors could not extract... but she knew all too clearly that it was a result of when she passed out one night after seeing a bright unexplained light in the sky...

I call it imagination and a few too many pain pills - she also was diagnosed with fibromyalgia and popped more pills and quack health remedies than you would even believe...while she continually tried to con me into okaying huge expensive purchases of jewelry et al from her severely disabled husband's trust fund...

I trust Occam's razor on most of such things.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:55 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Thanks for the info Watcher :D Like I said I never really followed up with the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Shroud of Turin but since one is fake and the other doesn't have to do with Christ then...God's mystery is still mysterious!

Wow about that client! Too many pill'll knock you out no problem and they'll make you fall into sharp metal things that become lodged into your knee too :D

_________________

Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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Holbytla
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:59 am
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There is just as much reason to disbelieve as believe.

Whatever the odds are that other life exists out there, divide it by billions and you will get the odds that we will ever know about it.

Again exceptin microbes etc.


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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 2:44 am
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I beg to differ on the Shroud of Turin, Beth. I watched a documentary on PBS that really seemed to lend quite a bit of credence to the belief that it is real. Of course, it can't be proven to have belonged to Jesus, since we don't have his DNA to compare it to. But it was carbon dated to Jesus' time, contained DNA that was male and Jewish, and matched the DNA found on another sacred artifact held in Spain somewhere. (Can't remember the name of it now.)

It can't answer definitively that "Yes, this was wrapped around Jesus!" but it certainly could have been. (IOW, it was not a medieval forgery.)

Lali

ETA: Ah, yes. It was Secrets of the Dead. I love that show! It seems that the entire issue is quite controversial, but on both sides. There is strong evidence on both sides of the issue, it seems. (But the evidence presented in Secrets of the Dead did a good job, imo, of answering claims of forgery.)

Last edited by LalaithUrwen on Fri 03 Aug , 2007 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 2:46 am
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Holbytla wrote:
There is just as much reason to disbelieve as believe.
Nuh uh. Beleiving is way more fun.


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vison
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 3:54 am
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Lalaith, it was a medieval forgery. That's the most recent finding.

Shroud of Turin

As for "not believing in god, so don't believe in aliens"? BS, actually.

I said above I don't "believe" in aliens. Yet, I think life otherwhere than Earth is not only possible but probable. However, having said that, I also say that the Universe is almost impossibly vast and it is unlikely that we shall ever know if we are alone. I don't think we are, but that is logic and reason speaking, not blind faith nor imagination.

The Shroud of Turin and the Dead Sea scrolls belong, in many ways, to the magisterium of religion. They have nothing whatsoever to do with science, except in that they are "real" artifacts, and can be studied and dated, etc., just like any other artifact.

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 4:23 am
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Read the whole article, vison, if you've not done so already. That conclusion is far from a done deal. It seems there is a lot of evidence that could go either way.


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vison
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 5:04 am
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Only if you want it to, Lalaith.

I don't want it to be "realer" than it is, a cleverly painted bit of linen from the medieval period. It belongs to a genre that is still very popular: the sacred relic. Nearly every church in Europe has a piece of the Cross or a fingernail clipping from some saint or another. The Church, that is, the Catholic church, was moving away from this sort of thing and then, sadly or not sadly, they got landed with JPII and now this Benedict bird.

The thing is, you know, suppose it was a genuine 1st century shroud? Who's to say whose it was? There were a lot of guys crucified in those days.

It will never be proved to be the shroud of Jesus. Maybe it will never be proved 1,000% not to be, either. I think those that want it to be will have to be content with that.

I like this kind of thing, actually. It is very interesting to me, learning about the level of technological inventiveness that was apparently always around. I remember reading about a workshop on the outskirts of Rome that made relics for the pilgrims. Or maybe the workshop was in Spain, can't recall for sure. Man, they could make EVERYTHING.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 10:08 am
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Carl Sagan, he should rest in peace, was a good scientist but also a carnival hawker. He knew how many people there are out there who long not to be alone and he built his media career out of this.

When we sent Voyager off into space we put all these artifacts of human culture on board, and even a map to earth so that any aliens who found the ship would know lots about us and how to get in touch.

Isn't that like putting your telephone number on a toilet stall in a biker bar? It would have caused me a great deal of concern, actually, except that the odds of Voyager meeting up with anything capable of deciphering our message is practically zero. There's a bunch of earth music and earth pictures on Voyager, under the philosophy that aliens might be blind or they might be deaf but they couldn't possibly be both ... whereas I'm wondering what are the odds that they even inhabit the same four dimensions as we do? They could be, you know, right next to us and we just wouldn't perceive one another.

So I had to vote "no" - not because I'm sure there's nothing out there but because I would be awfully surprised if human beings or anything recognizable to us were *the* model for organic matter in the Universe.

Jn

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Jude
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 12:10 pm
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I find the Shroud of Turin to be a fascinating subject. Is it worth starting a new thread about, or has the discussion run its course?

I'm also very curious to know what "earth music" was included on the Voyager.

Beatles? Traditional folk music? Bay City Rollers? :Wooper:

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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 12:35 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
So I had to vote "no" - not because I'm sure there's nothing out there but because I would be awfully surprised if human beings or anything recognizable to us were *the* model for organic matter in the Universe.
Hee hee, I'm surprised we agree on this. :) It's a pet peeve of mine when people assume they know what is necessary/required for life to exist. We've just barely started to get a grip on kindasortamaybe what makes earth life tic and we start acting like we know how it might work over teh whole universe? Yeesh.


Oh, and Holby's link on the last page forgot about how someday we're gonna invent teleportation. :Wooper:


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The Watcher
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:27 pm
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yovargas wrote:
Jnyusa wrote:
So I had to vote "no" - not because I'm sure there's nothing out there but because I would be awfully surprised if human beings or anything recognizable to us were *the* model for organic matter in the Universe.
Hee hee, I'm surprised we agree on this. :) It's a pet peeve of mine when people assume they know what is necessary/required for life to exist. We've just barely started to get a grip on kindasortamaybe what makes earth life tic and we start acting like we know how it might work over teh whole universe? Yeesh.


Oh, and Holby's link on the last page forgot about how someday we're gonna invent teleportation. :Wooper:
Yovi -

I certainly do not claim to know what are the bare bones attributes that are needed to constitute life, but as far as we can tell in THIS Universe, physical and chemical processes work the same way. When scientists study extremophiles - those microbes that live in completely hostile environments to humans, they still find SOME key requirements - liquid water and carbon being the bare basics. Of course that does not completely rule out life arising in a form where NO liquid water or carbon is required, but if we are going to start someplace, it at least makes sense to start with what we DO know. :)

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Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive...
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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:37 pm
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Since scientists generally believe that all earth life evolved from the same single source, that doesn't tell us anything at all. If that's true, we really only have one example, as Dave pointed out, and that's it. Note that despite plenty of water and whatnot, scientists apparently don't believe that any lifeforms have succesfully formed here ever again. One could take that in several ways, one being that maybe water- and carbon-rich planets really aren't conducive to the formation of life.


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 1:37 pm
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*decides arbitrarily without reading the article that the "Shroud Of Turin" is some relic brought over from Middle Earth*












;)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 03 Aug , 2007 2:06 pm
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Jude wrote:
I'm also very curious to know what "earth music" was included on the Voyager.
Johnny B. Good.

No, I'm not kidding.

(That was one of many pieces, and I don't know the whole list.)

Jn

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