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Holbytla
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 7:45 pm
Grumpy cuz I can be
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Quote:
From: TheMary
To: MariaHobbit
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:19 pm
Subject: please stop
Please stop cutting and pasting whatever it is you keep posting. It's distracting and unnecessary.

Thanks.

sneaks up behind DaMary
puts his arms around her and nestles up to her ear and whispers
pssst
it's Peter Jackson's prologue to the LOTR


:devil:
sm0000ch :love:


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 7:49 pm
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Holbytla wrote:

...it's Peter Jackson's prologue to the LOTR

:devil:
sm0000ch :love:
:Q [ img ]

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Elian
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 8:09 pm
Let the dice fly.
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Oy.

1. There are certain situations when crossposting makes perfect sense...for moots, of course, if you want the biggest possible attendance (and also because surely, if you didn't crosspost about them, someone would inevitably say "you're trying to shut out this board's members!!!!" :P), and for emotionally upsetting topics...nobody wants to talk about that stuff more than necessary, usually. So that's all well and good.

2. Hal makes a simple statement, implying absolutely nothing other than what's literally said except that he's too lazy to use proper punctuation.

3. There are immediate unfortunate responses.

4. Hal loses it. Whose fault is it? Meh. More than one person can say things that are uncalled for. I don't believe he instigated the drama in that thread, though he certainly did so here.

To the subject at hand - hal, you know I don't post at HoF either, but if someone's posted something there I want to know...I just ask. Or if they really don't want to talk about it, I ask someone else who does post there and can give me a summary...there are ways around most every roadblock, especially online. :P

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Rodia
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 8:45 pm
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I don't come into a thread expecting the worst of hal, or anyone, but what I saw looked like a provocation. Maybe I'm wrong, that's possible. I don't think I'm wrong, but it's possible.

But, hal, don't say I have any kind of opinion of you ingrained in me. I don't, and you should know that.

I'm not sure if I should have spoken up at all, but it's done.

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Elian
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 8:52 pm
Let the dice fly.
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I simply don't see any provacation...Eru said 'it's all here if you want to read it, linky link' Enchie said 'I'm not registered there, etc' Eru said 'but you could be and then you could read it' and hal said....'I can't' *


I guess he could have said more, yes, as in "I can't, so could somebody please give me a quick summary" or "I can't, so I'll be pming you to find out what happened" or whatever, but...he's hal. Maybe I just talk to him more than most people here, but...I'm pretty used to him being a man of few words at times. That's just...hal. *shrug*






*Disclaimer: quotes are not in any way even close to exact. :P

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Rodia
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 9:00 pm
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It's weird that two simple words like that can sound like a provocation, I know. I'm trying to figure out why they did. Maybe it just looked that way because he hadn't posted for a long time before those two words. Maybe it just felt like because he only said 'I can't' instead of the stuff you just suggested, it sounded like he was focusing on an issue that was his own and that had nothing to do with helping Eru. And my reaction was the same as Jewel's, I guess...why post something as ambiguous as that? Something that just begs for people to ask 'why can't you get on HoF, hal?'. That's what it looked like to me, an invitation for people to ask.

Which, to be honest, is a move not unusual for someone who feels they were unfairly treated, and that an issue was not resolved.

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Elian
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 9:06 pm
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Quote:
Maybe it just looked that way because he hadn't posted for a long time before those two words.
Ah, I see...not having been here, I wouldn't know about that. I would tend to believe it was just the first thing that had interested him, but I can see how one could think the worst of that too, yeah.


I think he posted something as ambiguous as that because...he's hal. Seriously, that's just the way he is. If hal seeks attention...he does it in a big, bold, all caps, cursing every other word kind of way. Subtlety is not his strong point, and after years of knowing him, I'm amazed that people here haven't gotten that yet. :P




(And I gotta add, not as a dig against you Ro, but just in general...if people always assume that hal's trying to provoke them and stir up drama, aren't they also assuming the worst of him where they could instead...try to assume the best, or at the very least, not assume anything?)

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Rodia
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 10:12 pm
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I do try to be careful. I think I very rarely assume anything about anyone...it's just...I don't know. It felt like a call for attention, and not one I would call subtle. Annoying, maybe.

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TheMary
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 11:05 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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I'm no Tolkien expert I never pretened to be *ducks and covers* :D

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Soon you will see
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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 11:45 pm
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Elian wrote:
I think he posted something as ambiguous as that because...he's hal. Seriously, that's just the way he is. If hal seeks attention...he does it in a big, bold, all caps, cursing every other word kind of way. Subtlety is not his strong point, and after years of knowing him, I'm amazed that people here haven't gotten that yet. :P
With all respect, El, hal absolutely seeks attention by making short, passive-aggressive posts. He's done so in the past, and it is absolutely legitimate for people to have assumed that he was attempting to do so again. In particular, hal will try to drag drama from one board onto another.

After our (hal, Ax, yov, me, whomever else) little altercation on b77 regarding statements of hal's which some of us considered racist, for instance, he showed up on HoF and started alluding to the incident. Not all of his posts on the matter survive intact, but here's one remaining example (in a public forum), which came off as deliberate baiting: http://thehalloffire.net/forum/viewtopi ... ght=#81951
There were other, worse examples that have been moved, deleted, or edited.

Or, here's another passive-aggressive example (unfortunately, not in a public forum), where, in a response to a long policy post of Jn's, hal simply opines, "You guys will never get it."

http://thehalloffire.net/forum/viewtopi ... ght=#59513

When hal posts one sentence or an incomplete sentence, that's when I most suspect that he'll come up with something hostile or incendiary. Not the other way around. He certainly is capable of swearing and using all caps, but he's also capable of one sentence digs and attempts to spotlight himself.

I read his two word post the same way as many others did - as an attempt to draw attention to the fact that he was banned from HoF, if not to spark a discussion. It would have been so much better if he'd said, "I can't see the discussion on HoF since it's in a members-only forum - could someone please summarize for me?" Others have asked this many times when they've opted not to cross register for HoF, and usually someone is happy to comply, even if it's not the thread starter.
Quote:
(And I gotta add, not as a dig against you Ro, but just in general...if people always assume that hal's trying to provoke them and stir up drama, aren't they also assuming the worst of him where they could instead...try to assume the best, or at the very least, not assume anything?)
You say this as though those of us who no longer assume the best of hal are doing so without justification. To the contrary, we have years of justification - messageboard drama after messageboard drama starring hal, or featuring hal in a strong supporting role. Some of us have a history of defending hal in those altercations as recently as the latest incident on HoF. Some of us have a years-long history of TRYING to think the best of hal even when all evidence points to the contrary (okay, in my case, the years-long history has been punctuated with periods of decidedly not feeling that way, but for the most part, I have spent far more time defending hal than the contrary.) When called on at HoF to serve as a witness in hal's banning hearing, I AGAIN tried to give hal every benefit of the doubt...tried to think of every explanation that would justify hal's actions for the benefit of the decisionmakers in that case. Many of the others here have done the same - either in that hearing or in previous altercations.

If you (or anyone else) disagrees with people thinking the worst of hal due to his lengthy history of poor behavior, then that's your prerogative. But I want to be very clear that those of us who now feel that way have not been too quick to do so. Many of us have spent years giving him every benefit of the doubt.

I've said this to hal privately many times before, and I'll say it now publically: hal's history in these communities is so poor that he has to earn back the benefit of the doubt, focusing on where he was wrong (rather than all the perceived wrongs that others have done him). He has to go out of his way to show people that he deserves their trust and respect. Yes, there is now a double standard in place concerning hal, because he has done everything to assure that people can't trust him simply to conduct himself online in a civilized manner. If he wishes to continue to participate in our online community, he should be doing everything it takes to regain the goodwill of its members - and instead, he continues to do the opposite. So I, for one, will not apologize for viewing his actions through a different lens than I view all other posters. He's earned that.


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halplm
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 11:51 pm
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and yet you're all so quick to condemn now...

I really was trying to combat what I feel is an overwhelming attempt to pigeonhole me as "the drama guy"

it took jewelsong ONE POST to categorically set everything wrong today as my fault, and I didn't do a single things he said I did.

I did NOT drag up anythign about HOF. I still have not said a WORD about my being banned there unjustly, and yet that sentement has been attributed to me MANY times today. I have only ever tried to discuss people's pre-conceived notions that persist despite any protest on my part.

Everyone states it's my fault, and therefore it must be. and I can't do anything to change that

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 11:57 pm
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hal: if you wanted to combat that perception, here's how to have handled it. After Eru and JS posted, you should have responded: "All that I meant was that I can't read the discussion on HoF, so I'd appreciate it if someone would fill me in here. I wasn't trying to discuss having been banned from there; you all misunderstood." Just that...and then left it. Instead, you got more and more aggressive with each post in Eru's thread, and then went ahead and started several new threads in multiple forums with caps, swearing, the works. And that just further engrained the putative perception of you as the "drama guy."

No one has "preconceived notions" of you. They were all "conceived" after your actions.


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yovargas
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Posted: Tue 18 Sep , 2007 11:58 pm
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halplm wrote:
and I can't do anything to change that

Have you tried this?

- apologize for all the hurt you've caused
- take some responsibility for your actions
- work to regain the trust you've lost
- be less antagonistic and negative
- actually stop causing drama and stirring up trouble instead of merely saying that you don't


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halplm
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Posted: Wed 19 Sep , 2007 12:00 am
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yes, I have yov, and no one changes... and then I react to the fact no one changes, and it's clear than worse than no one changing, the perception grows worse over time.

So, no, I'm not trying that any more. Poeple want ot call me a troublemaker for no reason, I'm going to call them on it. People want to have the wrong impression of me, I'm going to call them on it. People want to never update their opinion, I'm going to call them on it.

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Wed 19 Sep , 2007 12:02 am
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halplm wrote:
People want to never update their opinion, I'm going to call them on it.
Oh, I think people are very much updating their opinions. Mine has been updated today alone.


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halplm
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Posted: Wed 19 Sep , 2007 12:03 am
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yes, I know tp, and it disappoints me to have seen your reactions today...

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