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The Bash the U.S. Thread

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Is the U.S.A. really that horrible?
Worst country ever
  
10% [ 2 ]
Yes
  
5% [ 1 ]
Probably
  
5% [ 1 ]
Maybe
  
14% [ 3 ]
No
  
57% [ 12 ]
No, but it's so easy to criticize, I just can't help myself
  
10% [ 2 ]
Don't know, Don't care
  
0% [ 0 ]
Where?
  
0% [ 0 ]
Total votes: 21
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Estel
Post subject: The Bash the U.S. Thread
Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 8:50 pm
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Cause there is a difference between the country and the government.

Not to mention the many millions of people from the country who seem to get defined in one big stereotype of violence, ignorance, stupidity, etc etc etc


So, here's the bash the U.S. thread. Have fun :roll:


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Crucifer
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 9:03 pm
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The current US government is that terrible.
However, the people elected the government, so the majority (of the electorate) believe in the government, and therefore are also the horrible.
Those who are opposed to the government but don't bother being open and vocal about it are hippocratical...

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Estel
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 9:32 pm
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The current government is horrible.

It is not the country.

I don't believe that Bush won either election, so the people are, in the majority ok.

People can be vocal and in opposition with good arguments, and rational debate.

People can be quiet and in silent opposition without being hypocritical - they just have to vote.

Defining America by only its current government and people would be like defining the UK by saying that Gordon Brown is PM, and the people voted for the labor party.

That is ignoring thousands of years of history.....

Yes, thousands. The history of the continent did not begin when white europeans discovered it.

That is ignoring thousands of years of history, the prinicples on which the country was based, the millions of good people who live and work in the country, etc etc etc

I said, in an old thread that Bush had ruined Patriotism for me.... It's not just Bush ruining it anymore


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Jude
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 9:34 pm
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What brought this on? Some recent event?

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Dave_LF
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 9:37 pm
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Estel wrote:
I don't believe that Bush won either election, so the people are, in the majority ok.
Well, if that's the only criterion, half of them are.


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Estel
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 9:46 pm
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Only the half that voted for Bush, and considering that the majority of the people in the country didn't vote at all, that's not all that much ;)


Course, more people should've voted.




As for what brought this on - every once in a while I make the mistake of coming into the symposium, hoping to find a reasonable debate in which to participate. I participate in a thread, or start a new one expressing views and frustrations. Eventually I withdraw from the forum altogether - it can take only a few hours, or a few weeks - because I feel that I am about to become unreasonable and argumentative myself, because I have become frustrated and pissed off. Avoidence of the forum follows - usually for a few months - then, because of being curious, I repeat the same behavior. I've been doing this since my first week on TORC when I ended up with a run-in with MithraSomeoneOrOther (he had a sig pic with a photo of him wearing a kilt)

You would think I would learn eventually, but for some reason I don't :roll: :blackeye: I've even considered asking to be banned from this particular forum, but I never do in the end :neutral: :help:


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vison
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 10:03 pm
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Almost every American I know personally is a swell person. And some of them once voted for Pres. Bush and they were swell then, if mistaken.

I don't think the US is a horrible place at all.

It ain't perfect.

But look at most of the alternatives.

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Jude
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 10:21 pm
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Who was it that voted for "Worst country ever"? Are you serious????

Worst country ever?

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Purple Gargoyle
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 10:29 pm
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After living in, and visiting Cuba the U.S. always seems so bright, shiny and wonderful.
Estel wrote:
Not to mention the many millions of people from the country who seem to get defined in one big stereotype of violence, ignorance, stupidity, etc etc etc
I just treat that like any other stereotype and shrug it off. If people insist on being narrow minded they're going to find one reason or another to do it. Something as blanketing as a country is bound to be an easy target.

To say the U.S. is horrible is probably a bit of an exaggeration. It's not perfect by any means, but any place that took me and my family in and gave us a much brighter future is a-OK in my book.


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Ara-anna
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 10:32 pm
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I love you Estel :love:

And thats about all I can say at this time. Oh and I did not vote for worst country ever, just said it in the Andrew Meyer thread just to get it out of the way, it probably ended the conversation however.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Tue 02 Oct , 2007 11:55 pm
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Estelly shining one, darlin!!

You know perfectly well that your opinion is in the majority, as you mentioned, factor in those who did not vote out of ennui or whatever stupid and really somewhat an unforgivable reason compared to those who did vote and either got their "winner" or did not and actually almost cried ( like me.) What really matters is what WE, the American populace, learn from such things and factor into our decisions the next time around. One has to make his/her voice heard. I for one do not stand silent on things that really bother me, especially when it comes to my house reps and senators. I have one of the biggest dichotomies of those that I have ever seen where I live. Jim Sensenbrenner is my rep, and he is so gosh awful in his decisions that he makes me lose my mind (and no, I have not voted "for" him the last two times) and then we have Feingold and Kohl, two highly liberal senators, who I mostly agree with, but Feingold can also be way too out there for my tastes at times.)

Most people in this country are fairly rational, and yes, they are often misguided by not being fully educated and aware of the spew that they are force fed every day, pick your source. But, their fair mindedness MOSTLY shines forth, and I do think 2008 will be a very interesting year. I for one do not see a chance in hell of the Republicans holding onto much of anything. I think people are sick to death of Bush and his iron boots "I can do no wrong" mentality. But, I cannot say with complete confidence that I right now am backing Hillary or Obama either. Not that I want a wishy washy president, but I DO want one that can be practical and fair minded and above all LISTEN!! I am sick, so sick to death of the political party glorifications and being bought for loyalty over qualifications type of stuff. And I think awarding government contracts is totally out of control. But, heck, if I had answers, I guess I would be running for office or something. ;)

BTW, I cannot vote in your poll, I do not see an answer that fits. Disillusioned would be my current choice. :)

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 1:00 am
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There's also the possibility that people voted for Bush, thinking he was the best choice or the lesser of two evils. The main reason I hate politics and almost NEVER participate in political discussions is because ALL politicians suck.

I voted for Bush. I thought it was the best choice at the time. I think, like every other politician I've observed in my lifetime, he has been good at times and bad at others. Lately, he's been making very bad choices, imo, and I wouldn't vote for him if the election were to be held today.

Does that make sense? You can vote for someone, thinking they're going to be good, and then they turn out to be bad. So to say that people in the US voted for Bush, so therefore they are horrible is asinine, Crucifer. Sorry, but it is.

You've just said that I'm horrible. Um, thanks. :roll:

Lali

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tolkienpurist
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 1:31 am
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Crucifer wrote:
However, the people elected the government, so the majority (of the electorate) believe in the government, and therefore are also the horrible.
You know, Crucifer, back in 2000 I supported George Dubya. Now, to be fair, I was 14 (obviously I couldn't vote then, so I didn't do any "damage" from your perspective). Since then, I've modified or changed my position on a majority of issues and embrace a set of so-called "liberal San Francisco values" that Bush's ilk think are destroying America. That seven year transformation was largely the result of interacting with and listening to the reasoning of moderates and liberals, who used logic to persuade me of the correctness of their positions. In some cases, they succeeded; in other cases, they're still trying to persuade me. :) (And I am still open to being persuaded back the other way on most issues by conservatives who use logic rather than ad hominems.) But I'm pretty certain I would still be a right-leaning, "family values" type conservative (no, really, I'm not making this up) if those who disagreed with me had broadly proclaimed that I was "the horrible" for the way I was thinking.

Plus, as Lali says, a lot of people voted for W not knowing all the ways in which he would turn out to be bad. If September 11 had never happened, who can say how his terms would have gone? His approval ratings were sky high, and in some ways, things weren't nearly as bad before then.

So right now, I am open and vocally opposed to the government, which hopefully redeems my past harmless support of Dubya in your eyes. At least I'm not a 'Hippocrat' by your definition. :D


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Pippin4242
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 2:17 am
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Lali wrote:
...because ALL politicians suck.
[...]
You've just said that I'm horrible. Um, thanks. :roll:
Maybe we political types don't take too well to being tarred with the same brush. :bawl:

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LalaithUrwen
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 2:22 am
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So you're a politician?

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Lily Rose
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 2:35 am
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I would much rather live here in the States rather than somewhere like Burma, China, Iraq or pretty much anywhere else in the world.
The government and most of its agencies suck, but most people are good and decent. It may not seem that way when you watch the news, but it is only a small minority of people that are running around acting like fools.

I hate political discussions because they almost always turn ugly. Being a centrist, I am usually accused of being wishy-washy. That is simply not true. I am simply not interested in political parties. They are all corrupt. Politicians don't care about the people that they represent, they just care about securing themselves a lifetime job with exceptionally good benefits. What they stand for depends on which lobby group gives them the biggest donations.

I'll admit, I didn't vote in the last election. I didn't like either of the choices. Generally, like Lali, I will choose the lesser of the two evils, but I was at a loss to even do that. I am certainly not apathetic by any stretch of the imagination, I just wish that those in power actually cared about the people that they are supposed to represent. I think that this country would be a lot better off if everybody was limited to one term and there were no such thing as lifetime appointments for anything. The pay and benefits should be a little less appealing. Then the people running for office would be there because they want to make a difference and change things for the better. I know that it isn't practical, but that is how it would be in my perfect world.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 2:51 am
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Lily--
The problem is not that the pay in public office is too good. It pales in comparison to jobs requiring similar portfolios in the private sector. Thus the revolving door: people spend just enough time in the public sector to help out their buddies, who then give them fat consutlant/lobbyist gigs when they're back in the private sector again. Every administration in memory has done it, but this one has been particularly egregious.

People who STAY in the public sector do so out of some combination of personal non-pecuniary ambition and/or desire to accomplish some agenda, not because it pays that well. There isn't a Senator alive who couldn't get three times as much the day after quitting.

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Riverthalos
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 2:53 am
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Be careful of the brush you paint us all with. Bush's approval rating has been wedged near or below 40% for some time now. My guess is that a lot of people who voted for Bush wouldn't be doing it again.

Just sayin'...

That said, I didn't vote for Bush either time. The first time around, it wasn't so much I didn't want Bush. I just wanted Gore. It was a positive vote, in other words. The second time around, it was a selection between the lesser of two evils. To be honest, voting for Kerry left a foul taste in my mouth. I despise hawks and I firmly believe that any politician of any party who supported the war at first and doesn't now is an idiot and/or a coward. Seriously. If my b.s. detector was screaming off the chart during the run-up to the Iraq war I see no reason why theirs should be so defective, especially when we apparently had the same data to work with. :roll:

Worst country ever? Hardly. We're at one of our lower points, that's for sure, but we've got a long way to go before we hit the worst ever. Anyone who thinks different should take a sniff or two of history. The fact that Americans on this board aren't afraid of discussing this is an indicator that we have a long way to go before we hit the worst-ever cesspool. We're in for some real rough patches though and, to be honest again, I'm getting kinda frustrated with the diretion we're headed in. Sometimes I even think about bailing while the bailing is good, probably to Canada 'cuz I like it there and my favorite mountains are in North America, but that seems like cheating.

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The Watcher
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 3:39 am
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I see from all of the posts that followed mine that I am certainly not alone in my observations and objections, and these are from people on both sides of the political spectrum.

If only the people who did the campaigning ever read our posts. :(

For those of you in other countries trying to equate what the "US" (as in our government or our corporations or whatever) does in "headlines" with the everyday American people, you are SO SO wrong. I will leave it at bad press and comment no further. :(

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Lily Rose
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Posted: Wed 03 Oct , 2007 3:44 am
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Yes, indeed. Please don't judge us because our government has major issues. On the plus side of things, at least we have the right to complain about our government. Many other people elsewhere aren't so fortunate.:(

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