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How apt. How serendipitous! If anyone can wade through the following, advice would be appreciated.

One of my grandsons now attends a private Christian middle school. This was his choice, not mine, and while we pointed out to him that he was going to have to take Bible study, he's finding that it is more than he was prepared for. Today he had to hand in a paragraph containing 10 "points" about the Bible. According to him he was supposed to say whether the Bible "is true or not". Unfortunately I was out last night and so I couldn't help him get this sorted out until this morning and we were caught up in the usual getting ready for school rush, etc., but it was, nonetheless, illuminating.

Now, let me begin by saying that while it is obvious to anyone who has read my posts that I am not a Christian, I don't go around trumpeting my lack of belief to my grandchildren or telling them that Christianity is all crap, etc. When T first asked if he could go to this school I said something like, "You know, grandpa and I aren't Christians, but we are respectful of the beliefs of the people who run MEI and if you go there, you have to be respectful, too. You can say to your Bible teacher that you are not a believer, but you can't say 'it's all bs'." He was cool with that at the time, but today I find *sigh* that it's just not that simple. He's 12, not 42, and while we can say, "We told you so", what would be the use of that? What I want to be able to get him to understand is that it won't hurt him to learn about the Bible, or to memorize Bible verses, etc. If he is pressured to convert, I suppose that's a different thing, but so far, that's not the issue, and it may never be the issue.

He said he didn't want to say the Bible wasn't true, because then he'd get flak from the teacher. I said, "T, if you think the Bible isn't true you can say that, but you see, your teacher wants 10 points on the subject and you have no points, you're just saying you don't think it's true."

"Well, it isn't, " he said.

And I said, "Why do you think that"?

He got all upset. "It's just all bs," he said.

And I said, "But T, you have to have reasons for saying that. How do you know that?"

This was going nowhere, and he was getting more and more upset, so I tried to find out WHY he was so upset.

We got the Bible out and I said, "I think this is the most important book in Western civilization."

And he said, "It's all crap. That's not true, that it's the most important book."

So I said, "Why do you say that? Do you think Grandma would lie to you? It IS the most important. I'm not saying to you that I believe it to be the word of God, but it is the most important book in Western civilization, and you can use that as one of your 'points'."

If you guys could have seen the look on his face!!! Accusatory, angry, condemnatory, disgusted . . .

So I went on to say that I think it is a history book containing much true history and some not so true. That the laws of the Bible were some of the earliest written down, showing how people could live together in peace and respecting each other. (More savage looks!)

In the end he got about 7 "points", roughly scratched down by a very angry boy. He says he won't get full marks for it since it's not neat and in paragraph form, and I guess that's true, but the issue for me is: is a 12 year old boy capable of studying the Bible under these conditions? He says he doesn't believe in God, but he can't really say why, of course. He's just repeating what he hears from others. When he asked me, I said I didn't, but we had what I thought at the time was a long and thoughtful discussion on the subject; where I said I had come to this conclusion over many years and that while I wasn't a believer I know many people who are; they aren't "nutbars" or "retards", but friends who have different beliefs.

Many of his friends are Christians, if a 12 year old can really be a committed, understanding Christian. (I don't say that to him, you understand, but I am not at all convinced that any child of 12 can really understand ONE WAY or the other about religion.) It was to stay with these friends that he wanted to go to this school and while we had misgivings, we believe it's important for a kid to like his school and be with the friends who are important to him. More than that, they are a nice bunch of kids and we know their families, etc., so we agreed to send him to this school. His "best friend" however, is not a Christian, is 15, and goes to a different school. I suspect this is the source of the contempt and disgust, but that's a whole other thing. The kid is a good kid, but he's older and more sophisticated and outspoken, etc., and has a lot of influence on T. But T has to learn to think for himself, and at 12 that's not always easy.

So we share the driving with another family and this week it's my turn to drive. The girl we take with us is one of T's friends. I brought up the conversation about this homework, but it turned out that her Bible class had different homework. Taylor said to her, "Are you a Christian?" and she said, "Yes," but the conversation went no further because we were at the gates of the school.

*sighs again*

I like this school very much. It is, in most ways, an excellent school. The teachers are a great bunch, enthusiastic. It has a terrific sports program.

But.

Are we being realistic here? Am I expecting too much when I hope that T can learn to accept Bible study as "just another subject" and deal with it as he deals with Math or French? If he should decide to become a Christian, I'm fine with that. I don't want him "pressured", though. I don't think that's right. But I also don't think that's the issue here.

Anyway, that's enough. Any thoughts?

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is a 12 year old boy capable of studying the Bible under these conditions?

As a rule, 12 year olds are incapable of being dispassionate. They can be indifferent, but that's not the same thing. And it sounds as if what the teacher wants isn't really dispassionate analysis but parroting of his own beliefs.

Axordil wrote:

Quote:

is a 12 year old boy capable of studying the Bible under these conditions?

As a rule, 12 year olds are incapable of being dispassionate. They can be indifferent, but that's not the same thing. And it sounds as if what the teacher wants isn't really dispassionate analysis but parroting of his own beliefs.

Well, that's the part I don't know.

I have to find that out.

Get a book on Greek mythology. Have him read it.

The thing is, he's not making the connection between the truth value of the Bible and whether or not it has had an impact. The two are unrelated issues. If everyone believes a lie, it becomes an important lie.

Hey, that's the answer right there. You can tell him "if everyone believes a lie, it becomes an important lie." He'll understand that, and then you can say "even though the Bible isn't true, it's still important."

My oldest daughter went through a milder experience at a younger age, going to a "Christian" oriented daycare during one summer, and it made her a rather militant atheist, ready to confront any teacher at any time in public school later on if they so much as hinted at any assignment where she might be expected to know anything about Christianity, or if Christianity was even mentioned. Or if anyone even looked sideways at her about her own lack of belief.

I don't think acceptance or conversion are the only possible outcomes here. Extreme distaste for all sorts of religion is what happened to my daughter.

Does he know about other religions, or about the myths of the ancient Greeks and/or Egyptians?

We were brought up appreciating the Bible (and the Greek myths and so on) for the beauty of the language and the values the various stories extolled. What kind of stories does he like to read, and does he get that he can take the Bible as just another story?

Hey, C_G and Meril, good suggestion. I will dig out my old Greek Myths book for kids.

Oh, we're slugging away on it.

You know, it probably depends on the kid. Twelve year-olds are a bit black-and-white in their thinking (I certainly was!). But the connection between Bible and mythology I could and did grasp. Granted, I was also obsessed with mythology, particularily Greek mythology and so I knew a story when I saw one. I also went to Sunday School until I was 11, and they taught the Bible as a set of stories/parables, not a literal truth, and that helped. Looking back, it's almost as if they were teaching the Bible as something between a fiction and a non-fiction, if that makes any sense. Like the events might not be real, or they might not have happened exactly as depicted, but that doesn't make the overall point any less true, or any more true, depending on your point of view. If, as Meril and CG have pointed out, you present it that way, Tay might be able to swallow it easier. Exccept for that last bit. I think even some adults have trouble coming to terms with that.

I read a kiddy version of the bible when I was about 7.
I also read the Hobbit, ancient greek legends, and the Odessey (childrens edition) and so on. I was fascinated by legends etc.
Especially Irish ones, actually. I really believed (and still do to a certain extent) in those ones.[/aside]

But no child of 12 should have to make a decision on whether or not to be christian. I'm 18, and I waver all the time. A 12 year old has no chance of pure, genuine faith in anything other than Pokémon (or a more recentequivalent), unless they're brainwashed, in my opinion...

Does his friends know he is not Christian?
If they do, I guess you could suggest to T that he work on his "Christian religion" assignments with his friends. I am sure they are not going to "brainwash" him. For me, it's better to argue/debate/talk about this amongst your peers.

IMHO, he might be saying the "bible is BS" in front of you because he knows you are a non-believer. (I'm not saying he is lying) That's why he goes on and on, that it is BS, because I think he wants to get your opinion and he doesn't want to hear "it's an important book" or "we don't believe it". He wants to actually know why you think it is, so he can form an opinion. (Unless, you told him already why in your opinion it's not true.) Maybe it's time for you guys seat down again and talk about it esp. now that he is studying the bible for "scholarly purposes" not just a reading material.

I'm curious to know how T came to choose the Christian school. How very bold of him to do so having such mixed feelings on the topic and still choosing the school. I mean that in a good way as it's been proven that kids that go to parochial school get better education than in public schools.

I know when I was 12 the Bible wasn't a book of stories to me it was all about religious beliefs and what I was supposed to believe. Looking back I feel like a dope but I didn't pay much mind to the Bible as any good Catholic doesn't .

T however seems to be more mature in that respect where he may be able to see the Bible as just another subject, and I would have to give all the credit to the people that raised him. I think thus far you've done very well vision explaining your thoughts about the Bible being the most important book in Western civilization even if T didn't know why you thought that considering you weren't Christian.

Meril and C_G do bring an excellent suggestion to the table with the suggestion of Greek Mythology. I think it is possible for T to see Bible study as just another subject as long as the school doesn't push the issue of taking Christ into one's life.

T's frustration when you tried to ask him questions about his feelings on the Bible just prove that he is in flux and pardon me for saying so a bit confused. He feels a certain way about the Bible but doesn't really know why I think his new school may help him figure out why.

I think what TM and Lurker say has a lot of wisdom. I'm not sure why he's so vehement in his dislike for the Bible, but perhaps, as they say, he's doing it trying to get you to explain more fully why you believe it's not true.

It doesn't sound like anyone is trying to force him to become a Christian. Obviously, if he's in a Christian school, that would be the hope of the teachers and probably of other students as well. But I can't fault them for that, just as I wouldn't fault an Islamic school for trying to reinforce its beliefs and hoping that its students would grow up to be faithful Muslims.

I hope you figure it out. for you and him. 12 is a hard age. Katie joins its ranks on Monday....

Lali

I've spent most of my life in Christian schools and at least 5 of those years as a non-Christian. Those 5 years were an awful experience I would wish on few people, but I suppose it all depends on if it's a Christian school or a Christian school. Mine was the latter, but it sounds like your grandson's might be the former.

Vison,

I remember you talking about this before the school term started and I recall the very thoughtful consideration you gave to the potential problems involved. What I don’t remember, and maybe I’m just being forgetful, is any discussion about bible study classes.

It seems to me that if a religious affiliated school is going to open its doors to students who are not followers of that religion, under the pretense that those students will not be proselytized to, then any attempt by the school to “teach the religion” should be (a): clearly understood to be secular and scholarly, or (b): those classes should be voluntary. The thing is, and I’m sure you know this, there is a difference between “teaching the religion” and teaching about the religion. Religious Studies scholars today do a fantastic job teaching about religions without ever getting anywhere near teaching the religion (just ask Kushana).

I have to wonder, however, if it is at all possible, in a school that promotes itself as a “Christian school”, to teach about the Bible without implicitly teaching the Bible. And that, I’m afraid, may be at the heart of what’s bothering Tay. He has been told, by you, that he is allowed to openly disagree with the Bible in that class, but he knows deep down that the teacher and (to whatever degree possible for twelve year olds) most of his fellow students, see “Bible study” not as a scholarly examination of a culturally and historically significant text, but as an affirmation of their faith. And the fact that he doesn’t see it that way, but is being required to be in that environment, is probably enough to rub the poor boy raw. I would feel the same in that situation.

Personally, I don’t think it’s right for the school to put a child in that position, but since it’s a private school they can set their own policies, so I guess it’s too late to do anything about that. In the meantime Tay needs to figure out a way to deal with the conflict between his own feelings and his school environment, while being, as you put it, respectful of their beliefs. I think you are right to try to get him to look at it as history rather than religion. Perhaps you can explain to him what people like Kushana do - that it is possible to study, and learn from, and have a great deal of respect for religion independent of any adherence to the religion. You may also try pointing out the logical flaw in his statement that it is all bs, by showing him that there are in fact parts of the Bible that are indisputably true or can just as easily apply to the secular world as the religious one. For instance, of the Ten Commandments, at least half of them deal with secular issues of murder, adultery, theft, lying and lust.

I hope you can work this out with him. It sounds like a good school in every other respect and I’d hate that to be ruined by this one flaw.

vison, just to add one small rider to the thoughtful posts above, I wonder whether it would be of any help to get some books on comparative religion? Perhaps if Tay can see that religion can be viewed as a topic from the outside (which is really what you meant from your personal perspective when you said the bible is the most important book in western civilisation) rather than as a belief and world view system from the inside, it would make it easier for him to be objective about it?

I did a search on Amazon for children's books on comparative religion and got this page:

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keyword ... ion&page=1

It was a very quick search and I'm sure you could refine it and search elsewhere as well - but this kind of information would really enable him to get a bird's eye view on christianity in a way that he cannot when it is isolated as 'bible study'. A 12 year old cannot contextualise it all by himself; he needs help to be able to do so, to be able to step aside.

(On reading your post I reflected on my daughter's bat mitzvah last year; she had to undertake some very intensive learning, including bible study and synagogue attendance, history of Judaism and Jewish worship etc. She became increasingly resentful of this until one day she asked me why she had to do her bat mitzvah if she did not believe in God. That led to some very interesting discussions, as I also have a very uneasy stance on belief. We worked through the issue by treating the required learning as a cultural experience to broaden her understanding, not just of Judaism but of faith cultures and our own western civilisation. I think she gained alot - and not once was she required to affirm any kind of faith or belief in God; only an understanding of Judaism, and a more comprehensive realisation of where she stands, what she thinks, what she believes (or not) and who she is. Perhaps Tay needs some help finding himself.)

Anyway, just a thought.

Hey, guys, thanks. This has been a very interesting experience for us, actually. I am very curious to see how Tay's little "essay" went over with the teacher.

If it should get to be too much of a problem, then Tay will have to leave the school, and I think that would be a terrible shame for many reasons. But I won't have him tormented or told he's wicked.

I know he's not the first non-religious kid to go to the school. And I think that in this case the teacher might have been doing a bit of a "poll" to find out where the various students stand.

Taylor has no previous knowledge of the bible whatsoever, as I said. So he's really not in any position to know whether it's "true" or not. I don't know how his particular friends view this. Several of them are at least nominally religious, although I can't say that, except for one, I know them to be churchgoers.

To be honest, this is where I fall out with some of these people: they want to say they're Christians, and they want their kids to have this fine education, but they aren't churchgoers, although they might be members of a church. There is, sadly enough, snobbery attached to this school. It has very high academic standards, and it is commonly believed that the school only picks bright kids, church or no church. Certainly Taylor had to have high marks to get in, I assume because they only have room for so many "non-affiliated" kids and they have to have strict standards. But his extra-curricular activities were important, too, and his "leadership" attitudes.

I hope he can carry on there. That he can do bible study as just one more course. That he can learn about religion without being looked down on for not being a Christian.

Of course, people say to me, rather snarkily, "What would you do if he became a Christian?" My answer is, "That's up to him. I'd still love him! He'd still be my boy! What do you think I'm going to do, disown him?" Grrr. . . .

At any rate, this is one course I am going to be very involved in. I will read the bible along with Tay and see how he does.

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But I won't have him tormented or told he's wicked.

If a school official uttered those words they aren't doing a very swell job at being Christian. But there might be kids that think they know what is what and Tay might catch some flack. I truly hope this doesn't happen but I would imagine kids are mean no matter what school they go to!

He's not the only non-Christian to attend the school and I'm sure he won't be last. As long as you allow Tay to grow on his own without swaying him one way or another (not that I think you would and who am I to even suggest the notion?!) Anyone who could possibly think that you would look down on someone you love for choosing to believe is silly. And most importantly is the quality of Tay's education hopefully it won't suffer from outside influences.

I only read parts of the thread but maybe hearing about other religious texts might help too. I am sure Christians somewhere had to write essays on Buddhism and Islam and stuff. Maybe it'll help. I dunno.

About little kids truly believing in a religion I dunno. I was watching Kid Nation (horrible guilty pleasure) and they had an episode on religion, especially since most of the kids did not have the same religion. At one point late in the show during a multi faith prayer service (that one of kids ran informally), one of the christian kids was moved to tears seeing people of other religions praying for him (I think he was 12 or 13). Then at the end of the who when they had to pick a prize, they picked religious texts over a mini put course. I was surprised. They also showed some of the kids reading and discussing different religions. I thought that was very interesting.